Author Topic: Divekick AE+ Tier List Discussion: Release  (Read 2306 times)

Argenrost

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Divekick AE+ Tier List Discussion: Release
« on: October 20, 2014, 04:32:59 pm »
I know this is pretty much old hat by now, but with the slight balance changes, more knowledge among the community, and the addition of Johnny Gat, I figured I'd start up this discussion again. My tier opinions are constantly changing as I learn more about the game, and I know people have really mixed opinions about Gat.


Argenrost's Divekick AE+ Tier List (10/20/2014)

S: Redacted, Mr. N, Stream
A+: The Baz, Dr. Shoals
A: Johnny Gat, Kenny, Dive, Kung Pao
B+: S-Kill, Uncle Sensei
B: Markman, Kick, Jefailey


I may be biased but I honestly think Redacted is the best character in the game now; her formerly worst match-up against Baz became more like a 5-5 at the end of AE, and then Baz received significant nerfs to his meter gain and usage that otherwise made the match-up extremely difficult. She has to work hard against Mr. N, Stream, Dive, and even Dr. Shoals these days, but I don't think she has a truly losing match-up anymore.

Stream is still the threat he's always been but the kick speed nerf is noticeable and the meter gain nerf prevents him from having easier access to his godlike Flame Bait and KF.

I don't think there's any denying that Baz is still really good, but the meter gain and Bazkousen meter cost nerfs are really significant and could actually cause him to climb further down the list. It really depends on how significantly certain match-ups change.

Shoals is a problem. She's always been a problem, but now her main strengths are very clear. She's definitely top 5 in my opinion; the only thing keeping her out of S-tier is a difficult set of match-ups against the other S-tiers (as far as I'm aware).

I seem to be within a very small school of people who believes this, but I think Johnny Gat is borderline top 5 solely on the premise that he has arguably the best footsies in the game. He already appears to have some extremely difficult match-ups, but he also seems to do really well against characters who normally give the rest of the cast a lot of problems. His special moves and KF have a lot of untapped potential and give him tons of screen presence. In time, he's going to be really good.

I've slept on Kenny for a while because of the randomness, I admit it. But free cancels are really, really good. Still a lot of untapped potential with this character.

I hate putting S-Kill and Uncle Sensei on a lower B+ tier but I really think every character above them is generally better. S-Kill has very polarizing match-ups (either earth-shatteringly good or cripplingly bad), and while Sensei is a great character his lack of speed is a bit of a setback in today's metagame.

I think Kick's meter gain buff promoted him to "not technically the worst character in the game", but he still has a hard time in a lot of match-ups. None of the bottom three characters are necessarily bad, but again, I just don't think they're as good as the rest of the cast for assorted reasons.

What do you guys think?
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Capconian

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Re: Divekick AE+ Tier List Discussion: Release
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2014, 05:02:26 pm »
Shoals? a problem? you make me blush good sir.

I disagree on Sensei being so low.

Baz losing his insta-Bazkousen game really made him suffer, so some of the cast can deal with him now.

Kenny losing his Infinite flight cancels from Shoals and Stream Stance should hurt him, but just a tiny bit.

Although Gat has problems, I agree he should be mid.

I STILL say MM should not be placed so low.

My tier list (in order, and First Impression):

Top:
Redacted (grumble, grumble), Mr. N, Stream

Mid-high:
Baz, Sensei, Kenny

Mid:
Dive, KP, Shoals, Gat

Mid-low:
S-kill, MM

Low:
Kick, Jafeiley
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parrythelightning

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Re: Divekick AE+ Tier List Discussion: Release
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2014, 05:40:22 pm »
I think this placement of Kenny is appropriate - playing offline against good players exposed a pretty significant weakness in the character for me. He's just an unusually wide special-less version of some other character until you kick like a dozen times. Some characters can hit you in the toes multiple times before you manage to do that.

Jefailey was actually fine in AE, and I don't think these changes move him all the way from "Slightly worse than Kung" to "The worst character in the game." I would definitely have preferred to see no changes, though.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that S-Kill has no strongly favored matchups. This is a bit hand-wavey, but I felt like 1.1 S-Kill had a lot of online-only stuff for him and a lot of online-only stuff against him. In AE, a lot of the online-only stuff against him was removed; the S-Kill player could no longer say "If only I had seen it, then I would have pushed literally either button to turn invincible, and maybe also gotten a free round!" He or she probably can't even say "If only I had seen it, then I would have parried," because parry is pretty bad. On the other hand, an S-Kill's online opponent still has lots of chances to get jumped by a 20 frame move that is punishable on reaction by every character. So I'm not sure which matchup we're talking about (Stream?) but it's probably fine or unfavorable when Trick isn't an instant win button.

S-Kill's game against Shoals, which I felt was one of his strongest in 1.1, now cannot even be made favorable by getting kick factor. I'm sort of reluctant to post why because I'm imagining some unreasonably unlikely future where I show up to a tournament and actually pick S-Kill and fight a good Shoals... Anyway, all of his jump heights suck, even in kick factor, except for the 2nd vertical jump. 1.1 S-Kill could teleport to one of 3 very high locations, and precommitted to only 2 of those locations on the 1st jump, and you couldn't see which 2. AE S-Kill can teleport to one of 2 very high locations (d->d or k->d) and precommits to 1 of those locations on the 1st jump, and you can see which one he chose ahead of time if you look at his teleport animation. So the original (and completely absurd) mixup is gone, and now you can very strongly telegraph where you are going and maybe fake someone out by instead playing a move that can't win but is unlikely to lose, like exiting your jump much earlier?? So this isn't even "I'm betting you'll go this way" or "I'm betting you'll do <option that would ever be good>" any more, it's "I'm betting you'll screw up and do something that would never be good right this instant." S-Kill would be better off trying for timeouts, but that gameplan involves getting kick factor 3 times in 1 game against a character that can chase him down really easily when he doesn't have it. Basically I would never expect to beat Shoals any more except using the amazing strat of going to character select.

I think Gat's weaknesses are pretty big. If you want godlike footsies, why not just pick Kung and enjoy having an okay kickback and landing pose? Also, is Gat the only character other than Kick and Redacted who cannot cancel his kick into air special?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 05:49:39 pm by parrythelightning »

Argenrost

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Re: Divekick AE+ Tier List Discussion: Release
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 02:13:14 pm »
Ugh, stupid Macs messing up my post with special symbols. I'm going to summarize what I wanted to say.

Judging anything below top-tier in this game is really difficult because most other characters have noticeable strengths and glaring weaknesses. Markman seems to be the exception, maybe he deserves to move up a little, but he seems too mediocre in today's metagame imo.

Personally, I have to go with Briefs' judgment on most of S-Kill's match-ups, and what that tells me is S-Kill is actually really good. Several challenging match-ups, yes, but he knowingly beats or does well against all the top tiers except Redacted, which still isn't too terrible. He crushes Stream, does well against Mr. N, and with Baz's recent nerfs he probably does a lot better in that match-up too, with Trick being the deciding factor. If anything S-Kill should probably be A-tier now, but it's questionable how many people actually agree with me on that.

If Redacted has to pick Dive Gem against you, you might be a problematic character. Redacted has to pick Dive Gem against Gat. That's basically my summary of the character. His footsies are amazing, situationally better than Kung's in many ways, and his specials have so much potential it's scary. He has to be good, barring a really bad Shoals match-up and some hitbox problems.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 03:20:54 pm by Argenrost »
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BFS

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Re: Divekick AE+ Tier List Discussion: Release
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2014, 05:05:49 pm »
I think S-Kill should be higher, definitely. He has no actually bad matchups except for Dive and maybe Shoals, has maybe 2 or 3 free matchups (Dominates Stream, does super well against Gat, although that may change when his KF gets fixed and the soft ban is lifted, and Markman, who just flat out loses the matchup.)

Not to mention he actually has a conceivable  chance of winning the Baz matchup now, and virtually all his other matchups are practically unchanged.

I disagree with Parry's thoughts about shoals, however. Although S-Kill may not beat Shoals's height easily, one thing S-Kill has over the whole cast is movement. Even AE Baz had to respect S-Kill's movement if he chose dive gem. This is really prevalent in the Shoals matchup, where an S-Kill can actually have a pretty easy time dodging and waiting for a mistake if he knows what he's doing. Not to mention trick is amazing in this matchup, and although I haven't really implemented parry in this matchup, I imagine it could be really useful against a shoals KF.

Also, thanks Argenrost for actually listening to me about S-Kill. People be sleepin because everybody thought he sucked when AE first came out and that stigma still exists.
I'd say he should be in A or A+, for his only bad matchups being Dive, Shoals, and MAYBE Kick.
Silly rabbit, tricks are for S-Kills.

Sergeoff

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Re: Divekick AE+ Tier List Discussion: Release
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2014, 05:23:03 pm »
I've slept on Kenny for a while because of the randomness, I admit it. But free cancels are really, really good. Still a lot of untapped potential with this character.
I think this placement of Kenny is appropriate - playing offline against good players exposed a pretty significant weakness in the character for me. He's just an unusually wide special-less version of some other character until you kick like a dozen times. Some characters can hit you in the toes multiple times before you manage to do that.

Both points are relevant! In my opinion, the only mediocre/bad Kenny stance to find yourself in is S-Kill: it's okay if you're behind and borderline useless if you're ahead; everything else is fine.

Shoals is a problem. She's always been a problem, but now her main strengths are very clear. She's definitely top 5 in my opinion; the only thing keeping her out of S-tier is a difficult set of match-ups against the other S-tiers (as far as I'm aware).

The only thing keeping her out of S-tier is DFA bugs But seriously, we have to learn how to use that freaking special, for God's sake. It's the second best air special in the game now that Bazkousen is nerfed and undoubtedly the deepest one.

Judging anything below top-tier in this game is really difficult because most other characters have noticeable strengths and glaring weaknesses. Markman seems to be the exception, maybe he deserves to move up a little, but he seems too mediocre in today's metagame imo.

You know, if Markman's EWGF was easier to time, he could easily be Kazuya-tier. I really like him as is, but it is quite hard to play against Baz and Stream at the moment.
One thing that's still largely unexplored is MM's Just Feint. Theoretically, it should be much more relevant in AE and AE+ since that kickback got gutted.
Oh, and I have no idea how does Insomniac manage to win all these games like he did this Daily. These MUs all look like a real struggle.

Personally, I have to go with Briefs' judgment on most of S-Kill's match-ups, and what that tells me is S-Kill is actually really good.

Yeah, I also agree with Briefs' thoughts on the character. He rarely played Seth before the nerf, so his judgement is in no way spoiled by S-Kill's previous reign. Strictly speaking, Briefs relies on Trick only. "Fuck Parry, fuck Kickfactor, Parry still #gdlk" is his motto, and it works miraculously online because a) you can't react to that online b) Briefs has Trick setups on literally everyone.
Not sure how is he offline, though. Maybe Robert is right about Trick being reactable offline, in which case B++ is reasonable.

[Gat] has to be good, barring a really bad Shoals match-up and some hitbox problems.

Car is situational (watch his meter and you're fine, damn it!), Hole is still a mystery. I hate the fact that his Air special is so rigid - can't cancel into it, can't kick out of it. At least it has a built-in airbackdash. No startup on kick is actually a big deal and it does make him good.
Yeah, a minor remark here: Shoals is a priori at a huge advantage against a character with a low dive height, that's just how it is. If you can't challenge her in the air, she's free to fly all over the place and generally be an annoying bitch. Vanilla Markman was the only exception (no matter the gem) because that kickback was too good.

And one more thing: Shoals mirrors are the worst thing ever. I almost deleted Divekick from my PC after I lost to Cap and then to Asminthe that Sunday. That shit requires you to play smart, and I hate playing smart

Argenrost

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Re: Divekick AE+ Tier List Discussion: Release
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2014, 05:10:33 pm »
I play smart 100% of the time. Imagine how I feel when I still lose badly at times.  :P

If what I remember about Trick's startup is correct, an instant Trick kick barely breaks double-digit startup frames, which is completely outside the bounds of human reaction. The only real problem with Trick is that it only shines when used in a very particular manner, and a lot of what defines S-Kill's match-ups is "how easily can I turn Trick into a favorable situation for me?"

For match-ups like Stream, the answer to that question is "basically whenever the hell I want", which is why he dominates that match so hard. When the applications aren't so obvious or easily crushed, S-Kill has a much harder time.
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parrythelightning

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Re: Divekick AE+ Tier List Discussion: Release
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2014, 09:53:32 pm »
You have 20 frames from S-Kill's meter draining to S-Kill appearing next to where you were. I was maybe wrong to say "punishable on reaction by every character" because I'm not sure if Shoals can't punish it on reaction if she's standing, but in other situations she can.

I'm pretty familiar with the game of "what part of my opponent's movement is free to Trick?" Demeteloaf once figured out how to take space as Stream without being free to Trick basically ever, but it's probably a bit different now between S-Kill's movement changes and Stream's kick speed nerf. I'd like to hear Demeteloaf or Foo's thoughts on this.

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Re: Divekick AE+ Tier List Discussion: Release
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2014, 10:08:57 pm »
I still have yet to determine if my style works offline. I don't see why not, though, as I don't rely solely on unreactables. I'd have to get more experience offline in order to make any good judgement calls. But yeah, Toko said it better than I could. I pretty much base my entire style around making my opponent easy to trick. I think it'd transfer pretty easily offline, which is why I say S-Kill should be higher.
Silly rabbit, tricks are for S-Kills.

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Re: Divekick AE+ Tier List Discussion: Release
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2014, 08:41:23 pm »
I'm kind of enjoying Jefailey right now, though my reasons may be heavy placebo effect.

I used to find KF a bother because it was easy to go in too hard with it at start of round. Not so much now. Oh, you did a kickback? Lemme rocket into not-your-kickback-kick-range and bop you. KF's biggest problem was wasted time spent floating around into a situation you could safely attack from, and now there are more situations where you can go right in.

Meter's more managable too. There's more time to position before I have to commit to KF or either of his clumsy ways of venting meter, but DQ remains spammable.

Getting headshot sucks more now against S-Kill because his meterbuilding is much harder to discourage, but reduced kick speed makes his movement just a little more incremental and might be helpful in matches that swing on who punishes whom, like Kung and Red.