Author Topic: Divekick Update 1 - Change List  (Read 28326 times)

Gunthor the Perilous

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2013, 03:06:40 pm »
Be real.  What was mindless is very very obviously that going for kickfactor in most of his matchups was ALWAYS the right choice.  These changes should make the decision between kickfactor and use of techniques more viable, as it is for the rest of the cast.

I understand wanting him to use other options, but his other options tend to suck. That's why we had to rely on kickfator, his specials simply arn't good. Just look at Shoals, she can do twenty different things between her two specials moves. What can The Baz do? Rope Swing has no functional utility thanks to it not being able to be used in any way creatively with the rest of his movement options and The Shocker is more useful as a vertical projectile than a Parry because it doesn't have the response time needed to even reliably stuff an on point Trick reaction.

Why not go the other route and simply make the character consistently functional without having to rely on his kickfactor to even out the momentum of the match? You gave him instant death kickfactor because he was weak. What is he now? Why wingclip what was all ready a bandaid buff to his base, broken kit?

If you want to make it a decision to use his other abilities, at least make his other abilities something worth consideration, instead of simply removing the crutch you gave him to prop him up in the first place and making all of his options suck equally. Do you know how cool it would be to be able to Might Swing out of his kick? Or if The Shocker simply wasn't a counter at all (because seriously, who ever falls into it at a range where they wouldn't beat out its startup to begin with? At any range you could punish a kick with a Shocker you could literally just kickback kick for the exact same effect at no meter loss) and simply had a very quick, vertical projectile so Baz had a single option to deal with all of the opponents that go over his head?

It was never that Kickfactor was The Baz's obviously OP option, it was that is was his only consistent option to control the momentum of the match, cause he damn well can't headshot his opponent reliably to control their momentum, can he? Give him the ability to do other things well before you nerf him.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 03:22:35 pm by Gunthor the Perilous »

Gunthor the Perilous

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2013, 03:49:13 pm »
Additionally, cross posted from The Baz forum, because this is seriously the most important impact of this change.

+15% meter gain is great and all, but "lol, grind to kickfactor" wasn't what they changed about his matchups, they utterly killed his ability to threaten and push the opponent forward so they can't just grind out their own kickfactor. Whats worse, a Kick being one kick from kickfactor, getting a kfator Baz to the face, then rolling the next 4-5 rounds because for the exact same, mindless, meter grinding The Baz has been accused of, The Baz himself has no answers to now and has literally no way to stop it reliably. One round isn't intimidating against someone that can't even headshot an opponent that k, ks the entire game. If The Baz's kickfactor isn't better than his opponent's, what even is it supposed to be? A Reversal that we can't reliably choose the activation time for?

The game plan for The Baz was never "grind kickfactor, win gaem" outside of anything but his silliest matchups. It was always "threaten with meter grind to make opponent move forward, punish the mistakes in their advance."

This was a nerf, and this was a hard nerf. Opponents have 0 reason to go in on The Baz, period, now, and The Baz can not advance on a defensive opponent safely because The Baz is possibly the least offensively capable character in the game.

Instead of Baz's 'mindlessly' grinding kfactor in all of his matches, his opponents can now mindlessly grind k-factor on him to the exact same effect.

Underlines for TL;DR
/maximum rustling
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 04:28:01 pm by Gunthor the Perilous »

enemyplayer

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2013, 04:55:45 pm »

I understand wanting him to use other options, but his other options tend to suck. That's why we had to rely on kickfator, his specials simply arn't good. Just look at Shoals, she can do twenty different things between her two specials moves. What can The Baz do? Rope Swing has no functional utility thanks to it not being able to be used in any way creatively with the rest of his movement options and The Shocker is more useful as a vertical projectile than a Parry because it doesn't have the response time needed to even reliably stuff an on point Trick reaction.

Why not go the other route and simply make the character consistently functional without having to rely on his kickfactor to even out the momentum of the match? You gave him instant death kickfactor because he was weak. What is he now? Why wingclip what was all ready a bandaid buff to his base, broken kit?

If you want to make it a decision to use his other abilities, at least make his other abilities something worth consideration, instead of simply removing the crutch you gave him to prop him up in the first place and making all of his options suck equally. Do you know how cool it would be to be able to Might Swing out of his kick? Or if The Shocker simply wasn't a counter at all (because seriously, who ever falls into it at a range where they wouldn't beat out its startup to begin with? At any range you could punish a kick with a Shocker you could literally just kickback kick for the exact same effect at no meter loss) and simply had a very quick, vertical projectile so Baz had a single option to deal with all of the opponents that go over his head?

It was never that Kickfactor was The Baz's obviously OP option, it was that is was his only consistent option to control the momentum of the match, cause he damn well can't headshot his opponent reliably to control their momentum, can he? Give him the ability to do other things well before you nerf him.

As an S-Kill player allow me to point out that Kickfactor Baz was less of a threat to S-Kill than a Shocker. In fact, now that he builds meter faster I can no longer expect to win meter races to Trick -every time-. This gives Baz an actual tool as opposed to the truly mindless and largely ineffectual strategy of trying to touch me for 3 seconds. And Kickback doesn't punish shit reliably: that little windup is a massive gap and the last thing I want to do is give an opponent any kind of opportunity to escape and potentially punish Baz's kick.

Keits

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2013, 04:57:24 pm »
Gunthor - I respectfully disagree with you.   Especially after hearing you say "I understand wanting him to use other options, but his other options tend to suck."


gangstakirby

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2013, 05:04:07 pm »
keits. everything baz does is basically a garunteed head shot if he doesnt rely on only meter. you just nerfed the worst character in the game you know this right????

Gunthor the Perilous

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2013, 05:09:54 pm »
Gunthor - I respectfully disagree with you.   Especially after hearing you say "I understand wanting him to use other options, but his other options tend to suck."

Did you even read the TL;DR in the second post?

What does the Baz do now? Glare at his opponent angerly? Don't dismiss two different arguments because you "stopped reading" at the first hyprbole. You just broke this character, at least acknowledge the arguments and show your reasoning.

enemyplayer

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2013, 05:11:11 pm »
You just broke this character

lol not really tho

Gunthor the Perilous

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2013, 05:13:14 pm »
Replay with reasoning and discussion or don't reply at all.

How is this "not really though"? What options does he have now? Jump into his opponent's foot? Cause his opponents certainly have no reason to fall on his lightning anymore, and the timing and technique required to actually use lighting offensively is insane

enemyplayer

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2013, 05:19:58 pm »
I did reply with reasoning. As far as I can tell you really want Kickfactor and ONLY you to have Kickfactor. Or something. All I can tell is KF is really important to you. Your meter isn't there to gauge how close you are to winning which is what Baz was being played as before. Mighty swing has plenty of uses up to and including kick an opponent in their fucking mouth. You know that whole momentum stop he gets while tossing the rope? You every try using that to bait attacks? You'll have about 14% more chances to try that out at least. The Shocker is a great answer to a lot of shit INCLUDING trick. Trick isn't a free win and never has been. The threat of a shocker can easily shut down a Trick happy S-Kill (you don't see me throw it out until your meter is straight up _gone_) and now that threat comes first: S-Kill can't beat Baz in a meter race. And S-Kill can't approach reliably without trick or waiting for you to cross. And I sure as hell don't want to play a game of footsies with a slow kick.

Also Moment #37 is insane. Everything else is on you. Get in the lab.

Adelheid

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2013, 05:28:31 pm »
I've played developer Bazzes. I've played solid Bazzes that use Shocker and even Mighty Swing to great effect. If you don't see how they can be good, you are probably just not a good Baz after all.

Gunthor the Perilous

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2013, 05:33:22 pm »
I've played developer Bazzes. I've played solid Bazzes that use Shocker and even Mighty Swing to great effect. If you don't see how they can be good, you are probably just not a good Baz after all.
Read the posts, not the first sentence only. Come on people! There was a TL;DR for a reason.

As far as I can tell you really want Kickfactor and ONLY you to have Kickfactor. Or something.

I'll repost the important bits because it appears no one has an attention span or reading comprehension.

, they utterly killed his ability to threaten and push the opponent forward so they can't just grind out their own kickfactor.
Opponents have 0 reason to go in on The Baz, period, now
The Baz is possibly the least offensively capable character in the game
Instead of Baz's 'mindlessly' grinding kfactor in all of his matches, his opponents can now mindlessly grind k-factor on him to the exact same effect

This is the issue here. I don't care about kickfactor, I care about kickfactor being intimidating so enemies have a single reason to care about anything I'm doing at all and don't just use every round to grind kickfactor up on me because I can do nothing about that.

enemyplayer

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2013, 05:36:34 pm »

, they utterly killed his ability to threaten and push the opponent forward so they can't just grind out their own kickfactor.
Opponents have 0 reason to go in on The Baz, period, now
The Baz is possibly the least offensively capable character in the game
Instead of Baz's 'mindlessly' grinding kfactor in all of his matches, his opponents can now mindlessly grind k-factor on him to the exact same effect


Says you. That's wrong by the way.

Gunthor the Perilous

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2013, 05:39:53 pm »
Says you. That's wrong by the way.

How! Use your words to express your ideas. If you have an answer to this, then please, share your godly insight, because last time I checked Baz going in on his opponent anywhere was an automatic boot to the face. He punishes their fuckups be he can't just bop them, he never could. That's his thing.

enemyplayer

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2013, 05:45:01 pm »
Says you. That's wrong by the way.

How! Use your words to express your ideas. If you have an answer to this, then please, share your godly insight, because last time I checked Baz going in on his opponent anywhere was an automatic boot to the face. He punishes their fuckups be he can't just bop them, he never could. That's his thing.

You're wrong. I don't need to explain further because you got this Theory Fighter grand final in your head where you lose every time and honestly I don't know anyone who plays Theory Fighter to lose. Sorry for being real here: that's kind of my thing.

Use your tools (swing works!), use your meter (YOU GET KF FASTER WHOA THAT'S STILL A THING!) and learn to survive without invincibility turned on. People might be more willing to listen to you once you'd done the work. I've bodied Baz after Baz after Baz pre-patch. I think I know what's good for him 8-)

Vysetron

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Re: Divekick Update 1 - Change List
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2013, 05:46:51 pm »
Gunthor, dude, chill. He's fine. He's different, but he's fine.