Author Topic: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread  (Read 6249 times)

then3xus

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How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« on: September 01, 2013, 03:36:59 pm »
If you have any matchup-specific tech, strategies, or even problems, post it here!

Kick             The Baz
vs.
MU Difficulty: 4-6
Gem: DIVE
Unlike anyone else in the game, when The Baz kicks, his foot DOES NOT have a hitbox so you can land your kick anywhere on his body and score a kill. Always keep the pressure on The Baz, but maintain your spacing as well. If you're too far away, Baz can build meter for free & if you're too close, you won't be able to react to his kicks due to your 45o kick angle. You can score kills by intercepting his path before he passes you using your own kick or with correct spacing, you can punish his falling & landing animations.

Kick Factor - The Baz is completely invulnerable while in KF. If he touches you with any part of his body you will die during those 2.5 seconds of KF, even if you kick him in the head. Kick cannot jump over him unless: 1). You have KF as well or 2). The Baz didn't pick the DIVE gem.

Kick             Dive
vs.
MU Difficulty: 6-4
Gem: KICK
This MU is all about spacing, punishing, and probably most of all, patience. Don't be afraid to go for toe taps, his empty dives should be fairly easy to punish unless Dive has meter. If Dive has the KICK gem, be careful of his unreachable range. Always build meter when you can, and punish with a quick dive kick at his feet if he gets too close, but always  kick back afterwards to stay safe.

Kick Factor - Once you have KF, getting kills becomes a whole lot easier as well as scoring headshots. If you get one headshot on dive, that should be game. You'll ideally want to chain multiple headshots, or build up another free KF if you don't have it already.

Kick             Dr. Shoals
vs.
MU Difficulty: 4-6
Gem: KICK
Dr. Shoals has too much height advantage to challenge her in the air. You'll want to get your KF as soon as possible as that is the only time you really pose a threat. This is especially true when the Shoals player is playing keep away, where she can stay super safe and time you out.
Shoals does have a few weakness though. She can't quickly punish whiffed divekick attempts, this is one area where you can bait & punish shoals. Shoals' options become limited when she is meterless since she can't hover in the air or cancel kicks into her air special which makes her movement more predictable.
If she's close to you and  jumps too high, you can move under her if you're quick, then once she kicks, you can follow behind her and attempt a punish just before she lands. Don't chase if you miss that punish though, just get back to a safe spot.

Kick Factor - You'll want to reach KF asap so you can corner Shoals with ease unless she decides to burn meter and fly away from you. This is where Kick finally gets to shine in this MU as you can really punish Shoals for kicking too close to you.
If she flies over you, it'll burn her meter stalling her own KF options. Just stay under her and punish her head on her descent.
If she stays in the corner, get close enough to punish any kick attempts. Her ground special is also punishable here.

Kick             Mr. N
vs.
MU Difficulty: 5-5
Gem: KICK
Mr. N is another character that can out-height you. Most Mr. N players like to start building some meter before going into a more offensive position, but Kick still builds meter faster so you'll win the KF race if they try that. It's important to remember that Mr. N's arsenal is totally defensive and he doesn't have as much horizontal movement as you do. If Mr. N is killing you, you're probably just falling into his traps. Unless you feel like you've totally downloaded your opponent, you do not want to be in the air with Mr. N, Marneto baiting is probably the most obvious & most common trap used by Mr. N to turn your potential kill into your death. If Mr. N is jumping too high, you can cross him up and punish when he lands. Make sure your spacing is on point if you ever try to cross up MR. N, if you didn't pass far enough under him, your head will pay the price. If you can ever manage to catch Mr. N without meter, his movement becomes very predictable and that'll be your best time to attack if spacing allows.

Kick Factor -  Mr. N with KF can be a little more aggressive, but remember he still has no offensive tools so he can easily over-extend himself and get punished. Getting KF as Kick allows you to push  Mr. N into a corner and go for his head. This is no time to get greedy though, still take your time moving in. Mr. N will probably run away from you but he's actually well equipped for it using his ground special (GTFO), kickbacks, and even Marneto to avoid your attacks.

Kick             Stream
vs.
MU Difficulty: 5-5
Gem: KICK
Stream is quite the trickster, and has very strong keep-away. Party starter is pretty useless as Stream will be in the air most of the time, your kick factor will be your primary purpose for meter. Learning the length of Stream's kick animation will be huge in this MU as you can score free headshots by positioning yourself just outside of the kick's range when he lands right in front of you.

Stream can trap you with Flame Bait if you aren't careful, most players use it to stay in the air a little longer messing up your punish timing. Before the flames hit the ground, you must kickback over the flames if you can. Standing in the flames will make you jump and you'll probably get headshotted. While the flames are on the ground, Stream will want to dip his feet in the flames to increase his hitbox and make his lower body invulnerable for 5 seconds. Punish him if you see him trying to go for the flames, but make sure he's going for it. He may trick you by passing right by the flames and straight into you so watch him closely.

Spooby PLS, his ground special, makes him invisible for a short while, but the camera still moves with him so use it to gauge his position.

Kick Factor -  Stream's KF only makes him an even more annoying trickster with the boosted kick speed, and even more dangerous Flame Bait traps. Never chase him while he's in this state, only punish. Getting your own KF will makes this MU a bit easier, but you still can't challenge Stream in the air.

Kick             Uncle Sensei
vs.
MU Difficulty: 5-5
Gem: KICK
Pay very close attention to his current stance so you know what attack he can switch to and so you can space yourself accordingly while building your meter for KF. Watch your shins in this MU, Sensei's footsie game isn't too shabby especially with divepunch's angle & hitbox. Hold your ground but not approach, over extension will cost your head. If you go for a punish and miss, do not chase as this will also cost you your head. You can step barely into his killing range but kickback out immediately for baiting, but don't become predictable or you will get divepunched.
Sensei's Superjump can setup some really dangerous situations especially if you are in the corner. If they superjump too high, you need to quickly escape by going under him then position for the punish.

Kick Factor - Getting KF makes punishing Uncle Sensei all the more easier so build meter whenever you can. At the beginning of a round you can get a free kill with D, K, Party Starter, D xx K as long as they haven't moved yet. This can be quite nasty for closing games or getting a little more out of your last second of KF.
Watch how Sensei approaches you in KF as you will want to run away and will need to make the right moves. There's an opening in Sensei's approach where you can slip under him as moves closer to you, take this option if he jumps too high while close to you. The only time you'll want to punish Uncle Sensei in KF is when he over extends.


Kick             S-Kill
vs.
MU Difficulty: 6-4
Gem: KICK
This is probably one of the best MU's to go for toe taps as S-Kill is more vulnerable than most upon landing due to his startup frames on his dive. His kick speed isn't too fast either so position yourself close enough to punish any time he kicks right in front of you, but don't forget he can double jump and punish your punish. Unless you like living on edge, you have no business trying to hit this guy above the waist while he's grounded, his ground special "parry" is almost always available to his due to its low cost. It's true that S-Kill's parry does have a few startup and ending frames where you can hit him, but it requires very strict timing so it's recommended that you still go for his legs if you want to punish this special.

Fortunately for us, Kick's speed makes S-Kill's air special "trick" a bit more risky to go for, but you can definitely still get headshotted if your movements are too predictable.

Kick Factor - Be especially careful of trick attempts while S-Kill has KF, this is where you will want to be the most defensive only attacking when attempting to punish. Getting KF as Kick can be a two-edge sword if you aren't careful. Your new accelerated speed will allow you to punish the same things from further away our movements become so fast that you may very well jump into random kicks so take your time while moving in on S-Kill.

Kick             Markman
vs.
MU Difficulty: 3-7
Gem: KICK
This MU is very difficult for Kick. This is assuming the Markman player is building meter and cornering you (not using items, which he should not be in this MU). Your goal in this MU is to get kick factor first.  If you can do this, you should be able to score an easy headshot, and take the game pretty convincingly.  The hard part is getting kick factor before Markman does.

Basically, you'll need to be able to react to Markman's short pokes and punish them.  This takes very strict spacing, and good reaction times.  If the Markman player is just spamming kick back, you can freely build meter.  You'll win this race every time. 

The problem is Markman's threat range is pretty wide.  Each time he advances, he will shut down your meter build for a bit, and push you towards the corner.  You need to be able to punish any attempts Markman makes to gaining ground.  If you can do that consistently, he will give you room, and you can win the meter race.  You need to be very careful of feint baits into headshot while doing this.  Even if you give up a round to a feint, it is worth it, because it means you will probably get k-factor first.

Kick Factor - If Markman gets KF first, which will happen more often than not, you need to play around feint the whole time he has it.  Keep your spacing so you don't get hit in the head, and take losses if you need to.  You should also try to avoid activating yours until his runs out, so you don't get killed.  Your whole goal here is to get KF after his is done. Once you have KF, you should be able to get a headshot pretty easily against a slow Markman.  If you get just one, you can start chaining, and get way ahead in both rounds and meter.

Kick             Kung Pao
vs.
MU Difficulty: 5-5
Gem: KICK
Kung's horizontal movement is pretty long and dangerous, learn her unreactable range so you'll know when kickback. Even though Kung can control a lot of horizontal space, there are ways to open her up for punishment:
  • If Kung Pao kicks from too high of a jump, she will over commit herself and can be easily punished with a kickback -> divekick.
  • You can punish her landing once you can recognize the end of Kung's kick, but timing is really strict and you'll need to be pretty close to her.
  • If you can get close enough, you can bait her with a neutral jump that will set you up for a kill if she goes for a kickback -> kick.

Kick Factor - Things get a lot more dangerous if Kung Pao gains KF as her unreactable range becomes even longer. Make sure to protect your head even if it means getting hit in the body. If you see a pattern in Kung Pao's movement, use it to escape or punish her, if not try to run away & burn out her KF as best you can.
On the flip side Kick's KF helps a lot in this MU allowing you to punish from a slightly greater distance. This is the best time to bait a non-KF Kung Pao by moving into her unreactable range then immediately getting back out. Be careful that you are not becoming too predictable with this though, Kung's reach can still easily headshot you with one good read and probably cost you the match.

Kick             Jefailey
vs.
MU Difficulty: 6-4
Gem: DIVE/KICK
Jefailey can't go in against you due to his poor maneuverability. If he tries to build meter, capitalize on his poor movement by kick dashing towards him and killing him on the whiff punish.
Never let him ego charge for free as a fully charged kick can hit from a huge distance away pretty quickly.
Even though you'll want to keep pressure on him, be careful how quickly you approach. His horizontal kick animation can easily headshot reckless behavior even if his feet are slightly past your head. Keep your eye on the clock if Jefailey has meter and time is running out so you don't lose to his timer scam, the freeze lasts for about 2 seconds. Also note that time doesn't run out exactly at "0", and actually counts as the last second of that round.

Kick Factor - Jefailey in KF helps his movement some, but now he has access to instant fully charged kicks. Learn how his kick arcs so you can avoid it and even punish poorly spaced ones. Building meter for your own KF is huge in this MU especially if you have the DIVE gem as scoring a headshot becomes easiest  headshot in the game. The bigger his head, the easier the headshot.

The DIVE gem is far from necessary though, you're just as strong with the KICK gem in this MU. Taking this over the DIVE gem will let you build meter faster and make it harder for Jefailey to react to your attacks.

Kick             Kenny
vs.
MU Difficulty:
Gem:

Kick             Redacted
vs.
MU Difficulty: 5-5
Gem: KICK
This MU is pretty fast paced, will require quick thinking, and you must keep pressure on her. You're really gonna want consecutive headshots in this MU and Redacted's head is in a good place for us to take advantage of it. The timing is tight so you will need to practice, but when you get it down I promise this MU becomes much easier.

One thing I find interesting is Redacted's high gravity which causes her to fall really fast. That gravity comboed with her already high dive makes her kick really dangerous. There is a downside to that gravity though, if Redacted is under concussion, her dive becomes so short due to that same high gravity. This is the perfect time to position yourself for more headshots. Redacted is a strong toe-tapper so when in toe-tap range, never go in only bait. If they miss a toe tap on you, that's a free punish, but you must be quick on the reaction.

Kick Factor - Redacted is probably the second most dangerous character in the game with KF as our KF is the strongest. It is very important that you do not let her back you into the corner as doing so will most likely cause Redacted to score a headshot. If she's jumping too high, you can D, K once or twice under her to escape. If she's jumping lower to the ground, it gets really tricky due to her insane KF speed, but she can still be punished for going in too hard. Kick does build meter faster that Redacted so you will normally get first shot at taking control of the match, use it wisely.

Kick             Kick
vs.
MU Difficulty: 5-5
Gem: DIVE/KICK
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 03:54:59 am by then3xus »

then3xus

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2013, 03:52:40 pm »
Discussing matchups this way will be much cleaner and easier to find in the future. Not sure if this forum has a word limit per post. If not I can just remove this post later.

Argenrost

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2013, 11:40:09 am »
Posts in this forum have a 20,000 character limit (somehow more annoying than a word limit), so you might want to use the second post as a placeholder. I can delete this one too if you need the extra space.
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Mundungu

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2013, 01:08:20 pm »
vs Shoals

This matchup is really tricky and unique for kick.  I think it's really close, but maybe slightly in favor of Shoals.  This is all assuming the Shoals player is solid, and utilizes flight cancels and brilliant escape.  You should easily be able to outspace and punish yolo Shoals players.

As kick, your whole goal is to build up k-factor.  You are going to want to stay as close to Shoals as possible, and continually cross under her while building meter.  This takes some time to get used to, and can be tricky.  One mistake means you get hit in the head, and probably lose the match.

You are probably never going to hit a good Shoals player without k-factor.  She can stay safe with flight cancelled extended kicks, and cancel her landing lag with brilliant escape.  You need to get k-factor to be a threat.  Even with k-factor, it is tricky to hit Shoals.

If the Shoals player tries to challenge your k-factor, you should be able to react and punish with a dive kick.  If she goes in the corner and brilliant escape stalls, you need to react and punish her when she comes down.  This is pretty much where the whole matchup takes place imo.  You will win if you can punish, and lose if you can't.

You will probably get 4+ k-factors per match using this strategy.  You need to be able to build up a whole k-factor and threaten before getting timed out.

One more thing to mention is Shoals is vulnerable if she has no meter.  She can't flight cancel kicks with no meter (it takes one kick worth), so you should be able to get a free kill on her.  You'll need to punish her second kick on the way down, which takes great spacing.  If you get too close, you can get hit in the head.

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2013, 01:09:29 pm »
vs Dive

I think this matchup is pretty close, probably 6-4 in kick's favor.  It's just all about spacing and quick kicks.

You should pretty much always pick the kick gem with kick (except dive vs baz).  His whole game is quick short attacks.  With kick gem, you can't react to them from a certain distance.

All I do vs dive is constantly build meter, and do a quick dive kick at his feet if he gets too close.  Always option select a kick back after this to stay safe.  You can't really get cornered if you threaten this.  Pretty much all of your non k-factor kills should be on dive's shoes.

Once you have k-factor, which you should easily get first, you can get kills really easily, and even go for headshots.  If you get one headshot on dive, that should pretty much be gg.  You can chain in k-factor, or build up a free k-factor if you don't have it.

then3xus

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2013, 09:23:47 pm »
@ Argenrost - Thanks for the info and gg's at Orlando bar fights. I'll just use my 2nd post as the reserved space. Really wish they had a "[spoiler] [/spoiler]" feature though
I also think the Dive MU is slightly in our favor but far from free. Most Dive players I've come across like picking the dive gem witch is fine by me. There seems to be several MU's that require similar playstyles.

As for the shoals, if the shoals player isn't that good, this MU is pretty free. Otherwise Kick can lose the match from one headshot. Has anyone found a counter to shoals' time-out strat?

btw If I'm leaving out important info on something please point it out so I can fix it.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 06:58:48 am by then3xus »

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2013, 12:51:57 pm »
Once she's up in the air on the middle line, the best thing you can probably do is tie by both being in the middle.

Depending on your spacing, she might go for a divekick, and you'll win by time out or get hit.

That's essentially what it'll boil down to.

Otherwise, you can forfeit that round and just build kickfactor.

then3xus

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2013, 10:24:55 pm »
guess that's better than straight up losing to that strat, thanks for your input.

Also The Baz (thank god) got reworked and I already see a thing or too that'll need to be changed on that MU. I haven't played the MU yet though so if anyone finds some new discoveries, please post it.

Details on the re-work : http://divekick.com/forum/index.php?topic=860.0

Edit: Just got in a whole lot of practice against The Baz, I had dive gem  & The Baz had kick gem.

This MU just got a bit easier I'd say. While The Baz has KF, if you can dodge 2-3 of his attacks, his meter is fully depleted. I wish The Baz had dive gem just to see if I could dive over it, but I guess he prioritized kicking faster for meter over extra height. I know you can clear Baz's horizontal kick if you have dive gem and he doesn't. Worse case scenario, you lose ONLY one round to his KF no matter what.

When I played This other Baz, I tried kick gem just to see if I could clear his horizontal kick (I could not). We both had kick gem btw.

Baz players will be more prone to trying to cross you up so be careful of your spacing when you dive or that's a free kill for The Baz. I find party starter to be quite useless and would rather go for KF. Sometimes if I see a pattern in the The Baz's playstyle, I'll opt to new angle if i can get a headshot or win the match.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 09:44:59 pm by then3xus »

Mundungu

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2013, 10:40:28 pm »
I don't really think the baz matchup changed at all.  If anything it got slightly tougher for me.  He never got k-factor against me before, there wasn't enough time really.

All you have to do is attack constantly.  React to where he's kicking, and jump up and hit him.  You die if you mess up / miss, that's about it.  They usually look for ground supers when you have k-factor, so just wait a bit before jumping in with k-factor.

then3xus

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2013, 12:49:26 am »
I can see Markman being a huge threat in the near future when more ppl master his tools. I've only played mid - weak players in this MU so I don't have much credible experience here. Perhaps we should discuss him next? *looks at Mundungu* ;D

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2013, 07:57:23 pm »
This is kind of a long shot, but in the Kick vs. Shoals match-up, would it be possible to trigger Kickfactor at the end of crucial rounds and just use it to hold the line against her? Obviously you want to make the most of the time you have in Kickfactor, but I think this has a two-fold use:

1) Kickfactor freezes the screen and still runs the timer for about 0.5-1 second(s); you could use the activation to shut Shoals out of a potential victory by taking the line this way, and then you start the next round with full Kickfactor.
2) The threat of actually being able to strike at Shoals via Kickfactor could make her take a more hesitant or risky approach toward holding the line, making it easier for you to bait her into making mistakes.

Keep in mind I am not an avid Kick player (though I do have a solid understanding of the character outside of match-ups), so I don't know how well this would work, but... it's a thought, anyway.
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Mundungu

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2013, 10:15:20 pm »
vs Markman

This matchup is very difficult for Kick.  I would rate the matchup as at least 4-6, and maybe 3-7.  There is one player in Madison really good at this matchup, so I'll try to explain what he does.  This is assuming the Markman player is building meter and cornering you (not using items, which he should not be in this matchup).

Your goal in this matchup is to get kick factor first.  If you can do this, you should be able to score an easy headshot, and take the game pretty convincingly.  The hard part is getting kick factor before Markman does.

Basically, you need to be able to react to Markman's short pokes and punish them.  This takes very strict spacing, and good reaction times.  If the Markman player is just spamming kick back, you can freely build meter.  You'll win this race every time. 

The problem is Markman's threat range is pretty wide.  Each time he advances, he will shut down your meter build for a bit, and push you towards the corner.  You need to be able to punish any attempts Markman makes to gaining ground.  If you can do that consistently, he will give you room, and you can win the meter race.  You need to be very careful of feint baits into headshot while doing this.  Even if you give up a round to a feint, it is worth it, because it means you will probably get k-factor first.

If Markman gets k-factor first, which will happen more often than not, you need to play around feint the whole time he has it.  Keep your spacing so you don't get hit in the head, and take losses if you need to.  You should also try to avoid activating yours until his runs out, so you don't get killed.  Your whole goal here is to get k-factor after his is done.

Once you have k-factor, you should be able to get a headshot pretty easily against a slow Markman.  If you get just one, you can start chaining, and get way ahead in both rounds and meter.

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2013, 12:53:22 am »
I'm gonna have to pretty much copy & paste what you said here as you probably have the best Markman right now and I'm not very seasoned in the MU.

This is kind of a long shot, but in the Kick vs. Shoals match-up, would it be possible to trigger Kickfactor at the end of crucial rounds and just use it to hold the line against her? Obviously you want to make the most of the time you have in Kickfactor, but I think this has a two-fold use:

1) Kickfactor freezes the screen and still runs the timer for about 0.5-1 second(s); you could use the activation to shut Shoals out of a potential victory by taking the line this way, and then you start the next round with full Kickfactor.
2) The threat of actually being able to strike at Shoals via Kickfactor could make her take a more hesitant or risky approach toward holding the line, making it easier for you to bait her into making mistakes.

Keep in mind I am not an avid Kick player (though I do have a solid understanding of the character outside of match-ups), so I don't know how well this would work, but... it's a thought, anyway.

I'll see if I can test this out, hopefully others try it as well so we can get multiple feedback.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 02:22:38 am by then3xus »

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2013, 04:38:15 am »
So, Kick vs S-Kill...

It seems like the Kick vs S-Kill matchup is very zoning based. You need to get in the sweet spot where if the S-Kill teleports up twice with no kick then you can punish, and if he kicks you can punish. Other than that I tend to have no trouble avoiding the Tricks. I simply try to time a Divekick for when I see their meter deplete. You need to make your moves more erratic when the S-Kill has Trick up.

I tend to avoid getting Kickfactor in this match-up. It is MUCH harder to control accurately and thus is parried more often. It's just not as good as Party Starter in the match-up. Party Starter seems to be hidden OP against S-Kill. If you get it off they are 90% of the time unaware because they're invisible, so their kick is slow and their jump is tiny, and they don't know if the Party Starter hit or not.
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then3xus

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2013, 01:02:45 am »
Always good to see more fellow Kick players emerge from the shadows. I agree with the trick dodging strat totally. I don't know why I have put anything up for S-Kill yet as I have gotten a whole lot of MU experience in the last few days. I can see what you mean about KF in this MU, I've had to go into versus mode and practice playing at KF speed a lot and I still don't have complete control yet.t However, I still feel it's just too strong in any of our MU's not to use once mastered. While in KF, I've actually managed to dive above S-Kill & hit him in his waist when he used trick.