Author Topic: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread  (Read 6222 times)

RorschachDM

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2013, 07:30:19 pm »
Always good to see more fellow Kick players emerge from the shadows. I agree with the trick dodging strat totally. I don't know why I have put anything up for S-Kill yet as I have gotten a whole lot of MU experience in the last few days. I can see what you mean about KF in this MU, I've had to go into versus mode and practice playing at KF speed a lot and I still don't have complete control yet.t However, I still feel it's just too strong in any of our MU's not to use once mastered. While in KF, I've actually managed to dive above S-Kill & hit him in his waist when he used trick.

I agree. I just feel like the match-up is mostly in our favor/even (like 6-4 or 5-5), but a single parry will end you, so i try not to risk it in this MU.

Ya man. I love Kick, can't put him down. Played DK for probably 55ish hours and 90% of that is kick. XD
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then3xus

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2013, 01:39:06 am »
Yeah, I'm hopelessly bound to play Kick. The S-Kill boards are saying it's in our favor too, but I think it'll change to a solid 5-5 as more S-Kill players develop their game. After all, they have better tools than us by far but our speed keeps us in the fight imo.

I hope I can soon finish up any character who I haven't covered in the op yet.

RorschachDM

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2013, 02:00:25 am »
Yeah, I'm hopelessly bound to play Kick. The S-Kill boards are saying it's in our favor too, but I think it'll change to a solid 5-5 as more S-Kill players develop their game. After all, they have better tools than us by far but our speed keeps us in the fight imo.

I hope I can soon finish up any character who I haven't covered in the op yet.

Kenny isn't needed really, and neither is Kick IMO. Kenny you adjust to the stance he's in but compensate for the Spirit Bullet cancel hover, and if you play Kick then you should know how to play against him somewhat.

I feel like Kick has more bad match-ups than good ones, which sucks.

Oh, while the Kung-Pao match is annoying to do, but I think it might be closer to 4-6 assuming you've played against her enough, playing against her is just learning her tricks and how to punish her deceptively soon landing kicks.
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Mundungu

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2013, 10:39:34 pm »
I think Kick absolutely destroys S. Kill, definitely his worst matchup.  I put it at at least 7-3, maybe 8-2.  7-3 is probably right.

Basically, you can easily threaten every attempt to gain meter, and dodge trick for free on reaction every time.  I really don't know what S. Kill is supposed to do honestly.

cHuT

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2013, 05:16:53 am »
My opinion on Kick matchups that differ from the OP:

Kick vs. Dive - I think is either quite even or slightly in Dive's favor.  I can't see a situation where Kick would really have an advantage to speak of.  If both players are staying in each others' face and threatening strongly, Kick can't build meter at maximum pace without risking getting hit.  Kick's jump is also lower than Dive's, so he has a disadvantage in neutral jump engagements.  Dive's KF takes 5 less kicks to generate than Kick's, so even if we assume that Kick is getting a few more meter building kicks off than Dive, Dive still just doesn't need to do as many, so he will probably still get KF around the same time.

And speaking of KF, Dive's KF is clearly better than Kick's, so he definitely has a slight edge there.  I feel that Kick also suffers more from being headshot than Dive does, as Dive's base jump height is good enough to still have some maneuverability while headshot.  Kick isn't totally screwed when headshot, but it's still just slightly not as clean as Dive.  All of these factors I feel combine into Kick being either even with or slightly disadvantaged against Dive.

Kick vs. Kung Pao - I think this matchup is pretty even.  I think it's better for Kick than for Dive due to two things.

  1. Kick's kickback is faster than Dive's, so he can get away from Kung Pao easier if he's caught in a bad position and needs to create distance.
  2. Kick's kick is faster, which comes more into play against Kung Pao than other characters because you can get a lot of strict punishes in certain situations that Dive is often too slow for.

It's easy to let Kung Pao bully you into the corner as either Kick or Dive, but you can actually be really threatening to her and prevent her from gaining space as easily.  If she runs away with kickbacks, just build meter.  But if she attempts to gain ground and move forward, you can challenge her by trying to kick as close to her as you possibly can.  If you land close, you can do a nice neutral jump.  From here she'll either try to do an unreactable and go under you.  If she tries to hit you with a kickback attack, you can tag her on reaction.  If she does 2 kickbacks, you just gained ground and can continue to build meter with the extra space.

Once you have KF against Kung Pao, you should pick up some points.  It's hard to attack her without it, but once you have it you can use it for what its worth.  She's still dangerous, so you have to be particularly careful because people like to wait and then quickly dive and kick at random to catch you moving forward.  I like to get moderately close... mid-screen distance and wait a few seconds while in KF.  This makes a nice safe attack that gets points on the guessing aggressive defenders and at the very least gets you a good read and probably 1-2 points against a non-guessing defender.  If he's really not guessing with defense against KF, you can pick up more kills on your next KF.

If you play that system of space control out of KF, you'll find Kung ends up having a really hard time actually hitting you and you get KF much more consistently/safely and you feel pretty good.  To a certain extent you're taking a risk of getting close to Kung.  The most common way you'll actually get hit is if you do the neutral jump close to her and she quickly kicks under you, waits, and hits you on the other side.  The only time you'll get hit by that is if you hang in the air too long after the jump.  With sharper timing/execution you can minimize the deaths you take to that situation and you'll quickly find you've got quite a movement advantage on Kung.

Kung kills frightened opponents.  Don't let her scare you and she won't kill you as hard.

Mundungu

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2013, 09:50:11 am »
I really disagree with you on Kick vs Dive.  Kick definitely wins this matchup imo.  Dive really can't gain ground safely, and loses the meter race.  Kick will usually get kick factor first, which gives him first crack at headshots.  If he gets a headshot, the game is pretty much over.

It really doesn't matter that dive jumps higher than kick.  His job is to stop kick from getting meter, which is really difficult given kicks speed.  It is just way to tough for dive to hit kick.  You basically need to read when Kick is going for a punish on Dive's advancement.  Anytime you need to go for a risky read on something, it's a bad sign.

RorschachDM

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2013, 11:02:04 pm »
My opinion on Kick matchups that differ from the OP:

snip

I agree with you on both counts here. I think the Dive/Kick match-up is slightly in Dive's favor, but only slightly, and mostly dependent on player skill and their familiarity with the match up. Kung Pao is IMO in our favor. I had trouble with her (and still do sometimes) due to the lack of knowledge in the match, and with over-estimating where her kick will land, but after an hour or so of practice I had much less problems against her.
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then3xus

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2013, 10:17:11 pm »
Since reading these last few posts, I haven't dropped a single game against kung yet, wow.

As for the Dive MU, I'm very conflicted in who really has the advantage:

  • Dive seems to have a wider punishing range due to his higher dive height making it riskier for Kick to move as he pleases, but at the same time if Dive is positioning for a punish he's not really building meter as fast as Kick.
  • I do normally get to KF before Dive, but even in KF, Dive can still punish or evade pretty decently so I still can't be too aggressive though I do have advantage while in KF
I'm really starting to think Kick is just a risk/reward character in general regardless of MU in most cases. This may just be because I only get to play online where I'm not even able kara K -> New Angle

Also, what gems are you guys using? Is kick gem still the go-to for pretty much everyone but baz? I'm concerned about how other characters are discovering even more techniques and polishing tech already discovered. Do you guys think Kick is getting left behind in character development?

RorschachDM

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2013, 12:38:05 am »
Since reading these last few posts, I haven't dropped a single game against kung yet, wow.

As for the Dive MU, I'm very conflicted in who really has the advantage:

  • Dive seems to have a wider punishing range due to his higher dive height making it riskier for Kick to move as he pleases, but at the same time if Dive is positioning for a punish he's not really building meter as fast as Kick.
  • I do normally get to KF before Dive, but even in KF, Dive can still punish or evade pretty decently so I still can't be too aggressive though I do have advantage while in KF
I'm really starting to think Kick is just a risk/reward character in general regardless of MU in most cases. This may just be because I only get to play online where I'm not even able kara K -> New Angle

Also, what gems are you guys using? Is kick gem still the go-to for pretty much everyone but baz? I'm concerned about how other characters are discovering even more techniques and polishing tech already discovered. Do you guys think Kick is getting left behind in character development?

Gratz on the Kung discovery. ;)

I use Kick against everyone except Baz. Dive gem vs Dive may be useful, but I've only tried it once or twice and I'm not sure if it's worth it.

And yes. ATM I'm thinking that Kick is getting pretty far left behind. He's not the only one, but it feels like he probably is going to improve the least due to his moveset. There's not much we could find at this point that would do anything for us. We have no movement/escape techniques beyond New Angle, which is pretty much never worth it. Party Starter is awesome, but pretty easy to avoid and hard to land online (haven't played much offline). At the rate we're going with discovering new tech for other characters I feel like Kick might drop to low tier from his current mid-tier status pretty quickly unless we find something or refine play-style a ton to compensate.

ATM I'm working on trying to develop a defensive playstyle rather than aggressive, it's working a bit, but I haven't had much time to play the last week. It's hampered mainly due to my own personality and wanting to be offensive...
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then3xus

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2013, 02:13:17 am »
Ok, so now Kung is updated! ;D

This is kind of a long shot, but in the Kick vs. Shoals match-up, would it be possible to trigger Kickfactor at the end of crucial rounds and just use it to hold the line against her? Obviously you want to make the most of the time you have in Kickfactor, but I think this has a two-fold use:

1) Kickfactor freezes the screen and still runs the timer for about 0.5-1 second(s); you could use the activation to shut Shoals out of a potential victory by taking the line this way, and then you start the next round with full Kickfactor.
2) The threat of actually being able to strike at Shoals via Kickfactor could make her take a more hesitant or risky approach toward holding the line, making it easier for you to bait her into making mistakes.

Keep in mind I am not an avid Kick player (though I do have a solid understanding of the character outside of match-ups), so I don't know how well this would work, but... it's a thought, anyway.
Yup this can work on Shoals as well as anybody else, pretty much like a weaker timer scam. I don't normally get the chance to use this a lot due to Shoals overly dominant control of the MU, but if I manage to run away long enough, it does come in handy.


RorschachDM

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2013, 02:44:48 am »
Ok, so now Kung is updated! ;D

This is kind of a long shot, but in the Kick vs. Shoals match-up, would it be possible to trigger Kickfactor at the end of crucial rounds and just use it to hold the line against her? Obviously you want to make the most of the time you have in Kickfactor, but I think this has a two-fold use:

1) Kickfactor freezes the screen and still runs the timer for about 0.5-1 second(s); you could use the activation to shut Shoals out of a potential victory by taking the line this way, and then you start the next round with full Kickfactor.
2) The threat of actually being able to strike at Shoals via Kickfactor could make her take a more hesitant or risky approach toward holding the line, making it easier for you to bait her into making mistakes.

Keep in mind I am not an avid Kick player (though I do have a solid understanding of the character outside of match-ups), so I don't know how well this would work, but... it's a thought, anyway.
Yup this can work on Shoals as well as anybody else, pretty much like a weaker timer scam. I don't normally get the chance to use this a lot due to Shoals overly dominant control of the MU, but if I manage to run away long enough, it does come in handy.

Ya. The Shoals MU is pretty not good for us, as most match-ups seem to be... :(
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then3xus

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2013, 07:13:14 pm »
funny thing is, after I watched cHuT play moonbeams, I instantly recognized "fake-out" movements that can trick shoals into landing where I can actually kill her. Too bad that alone won't close out a whole game but it's a good start.

Edit: I noticed you were using dive gem against jefailey when you played as Kick, me likes it! Thought I was the only one. ;D

I have been using dive gem for kung as well to get me in the air faster. Has anyone else played around with this gem against kung?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2013, 12:53:27 am by then3xus »

Mundungu

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2013, 02:48:26 am »
The stream archive got deleted, apparently it was never highlighted.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 02:36:34 pm by Mundungu »

then3xus

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Re: How to molly-wop: Official Kick Matchup Thread
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2013, 03:00:34 am »
Well at least i got to see it before it was deleted. It looked like a whole lot of grinding through small position tweaks and a few kickback fake-outs. I did notice one spot that I should have been punishing shoals that I didn't realize before. Hopefully I can go to apex and experience some different character playstyles.