Author Topic: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic  (Read 2859 times)

BackwardCap

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Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« on: August 25, 2013, 03:24:25 pm »
This thread is for talking about any buffs nerfs or general changes that you think are needed for Mr. N.
Status: Cleaning up forum

Firebust

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 05:48:42 pm »
It seems overpowered for the first headshot against him to not leave him concussed.
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TheCreaux

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 08:10:53 pm »
It seems overpowered for the first headshot against him to not leave him concussed.

i'd say the balance is justified because of how poor Mr. N's mobility actually is once concussed. it's not uncommon for Mr. N to be headshot multiple times in a row after a single concussion

Firebust

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 08:28:03 pm »
It seems overpowered for the first headshot against him to not leave him concussed.

i'd say the balance is justified because of how poor Mr. N's mobility actually is once concussed. it's not uncommon for Mr. N to be headshot multiple times in a row after a single concussion

I do suppose they put that function in for balance after all. Makes sense.
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SuccinctAndPunchy

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2013, 06:21:05 pm »
It seems overpowered for the first headshot against him to not leave him concussed.

i'd say the balance is justified because of how poor Mr. N's mobility actually is once concussed.

You could make this argument for literally any member of the cast. If Mr. N's concussions are specially worse and I don't know it then feel free to shut me up but as it stands it's a totally passive upgrade from everyone else for no reason than to make a cheap joke.

enemyplayer

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 07:27:57 pm »
Mr. N is really floaty, he doesn't have much in the way of fighting back while concussed. He's a fairly large target and his best option during a concussion at least in my opinion is to run away and hope for a mistake or recovery.

I'm no expert on Mr. N though so that's just my own observation.

SuccinctAndPunchy

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 04:48:58 am »
He's a fairly large target and his best option during a concussion at least in my opinion is to run away and hope for a mistake or recovery.

Again though, surely this is true of most members of the cast? I know Mr N's a lot bigger than most people outside of maybe Redacted, but isn't that how anyone responds to a concussion?

Diveby

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2013, 07:43:37 am »
Sure, but his pudge still sticks way out over the hitbox he makes. Other characters can at least be a credible threat by not kicking with their back feet. I mean seriously.

Plus, anything to cement him as cheating scum.

enemyplayer

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 02:18:32 pm »
He's a fairly large target and his best option during a concussion at least in my opinion is to run away and hope for a mistake or recovery.

Again though, surely this is true of most members of the cast? I know Mr N's a lot bigger than most people outside of maybe Redacted, but isn't that how anyone responds to a concussion?

Not everyone has their killing foot directly beneath their ass either.

oops Diveby beat me to it :<

MushroomGas

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2013, 05:32:09 am »
I've been sitting on this topic for quite a while, and now I am finally sure of my position.

Mr. N deserves the neck pillow.

In my opinion this doesn't need to be a question of whether he needs it to be competitive, though it definitely helps, but rather it is a question of his desert. You can say Mr. N is incompetent at defending himself when he is concussed, but many other characters are equally worthless. Mr. N can even jump as high as some characters when he has been headshotted, so he does have some tools to work with. The problem with Mr. N lies on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. He has a terrible time punishing headshots that he inflicts on his opponents. I've played over 3000 games and am the top ranked Mr. N on steam by over 200 points, and I still can't reliably hit my headshotted opponent (unless it is Dr. Shoals, The Baz, Jefailey, Stream, or another Mr. N). All characters with a "traditional" kickback are very difficult to hit because Mr. N can't get too close without being killed. The other members of the cast mostly all have an easy time scoring the point in the round after scoring a headshot because they can come in quickly enough to nullify the kickback.

My point is that if Mr. N has increased difficulty punishing headshots, his opponents should also have this increased difficulty- which the pillow artificially provides. If you can get a second headshot against Mr. N, you've earned the right to stomp all over him.

SuccinctAndPunchy

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2013, 04:08:42 pm »
My point is that if Mr. N has increased difficulty punishing headshots, his opponents should also have this increased difficulty- which the pillow artificially provides.

I...what? Why? That doesn't make any sense, S-Kill has a pretty hard time punishing headshots as well due to the nature of his movement but you don't see him getting a free Get Out of Concussion Free card. And yes, you can't reliably punish headshots (except on half of the cast according to your post, which is a pretty fucking good reliability if you ask me), but the same is true of most other members of the cast, consistently chaining headshots is absolutely not an easy task for anyone not named Shoals so how come you posit that Mr. N deserves this advantage, which by your own words he doesn't actually need because you can apparently reliably head shot half of the cast and you can defend yourself while concussed just as well as anyone else? Your entire post is pretty contradictory.

MushroomGas

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2013, 04:38:42 pm »
I know it's a little tricky to understand where I am coming from, and I completely understand disagreement from anyone because I am presenting some potentially contradictory stuff. I'll start with a clarification: When I say "punish" I mean get a kill on a round that your opponent is concussed, not a second headshot. All characters except for Shoals have considerable difficulty pulling this off. Mr. N has more trouble than almost anyone getting a kill while his opponent is concussed. S-Kill does as well, that's for sure, as it takes quite a bit of time for him to get into kill range. The difference I see with S-Kill is that his tools are much better overall to take advantage of his meter gain while approaching a headshotted opponent. For one, he has a reasonably easy time parrying a concussed opponent. I can see this as being a poor justification as to why S-Kill should not share the pillow with Mr. N, and I wouldn't be upset if people disagreed. I just think that he is more than capable without it.

As for Mr. N being able to reliably punish "half the cast" (i.e. win a round when they are concussed), I'll walk through why I think each isn't a big enough deal to consider Mr. N's offence against a headshotted opponent up to par with the rest of the cast. Also, it is not half the cast, it is one third when you exclude the Mr. N mirror, because he is supposed to beat his inferior version.

Dr. Shoals is already not very good against Mr. N, and she suffers a massive nerf to her abilities under concussion because it is the only way the low jumping characters have a chance to hit her if she chooses to try to run away. He just has a fantastic matchup vs Dr. Shoals.

A headshotted Baz is worthless, and I don't think any character has a hard time hitting him after a headshot, including S-Kill.

Jefailey is somewhat of a joke character who is designed to get headshotted, and he isn't equipped with enough defensive capability to make Mr. N's reliability against him stand out over any of the other cast members.

Mr. N does have a distinct advantage over other characters when fighting a concussed Stream in my opinion. This is one character matchup where my justification for the neck pillow falls apart. It is just one character though, and if this is the only reason to remove the pillow (I know you and others see more reasons than this, I must be appearing way too biased here) then it should stay because there is not a strong enough case against it.

So, I've presented my evidence. Remove the pillow, and I'll still be a Mr. N main challenging the higher end of Steam ladder. I don't think he needs it, but in some backwards way, I think he deserves it.

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Re: Mr. N Buffs & Nerfs discussion topic
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2013, 09:40:45 am »
The following is assuming you follow my balance logic: stronger character should be left alone; weaker characters should be buffed.

I see no reason for removing neck pillow. Mr. N is not as dominating in most matchups as other characters (S-Kill, Stream) so if anything, he should receive a few minor buffs.