Author Topic: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread  (Read 5478 times)

TheCreaux

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The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« on: August 21, 2013, 06:02:09 pm »
I thought I'd try my hand at describing the Mr. N matchups, so here we go. I've played Mr. N almost exclusively since release, but even still, I understand the matchups will change over time. I followed a matchup thread style that I've seen Argenrost use in the Divekick forums.

(I'll be editing this post as new things are learned about the matchups)


Vs. Dive

Verdict: Slight Advantage - Advantage
Gem: Dive

Dive's kick angle of 45 degrees is usually very strong, but against a high diver like Mr. N, it's not nearly as effective. Dive's approach is stifled by the threat of Mr. N's dive/Marneto. Since the first few seconds of this match are usually spent kickbacking to build meter, this pressure is always present. Dive's motion is fairly easy to react to, and his specials don't really help his matchup against Mr. N. Space well, just like during the Kick matchup (discussed further down), and this should be a fairly easy fight. I feel like this is very similar to the Kick matchup, but slightly more in Mr. N's favor.


Vs. Dr. Shoals

Verdict: Slight Advantage
Gem: Dive

This matchup is about staying out of Shoals' kick arc. A wise Shoals player will use the dive gem to out-height Mr. N. Her first kick, at a shallow 25 degrees, catches any aerial maneuvers. Since she can dive higher than Mr. N, air-to-air approaches can be tricky. Her second kick drops her to the ground at an angle of 60 degrees, which is just as steep as Mr. N's. There are two opportunities to attack Shoals: when she dives lower than you can dive and when she dives over your head. When she dives lower than her maximum dive height, immediately dive and kick (spacing provided) and Mr. N should tag Shoals on either her first or second kick. Otherwise, stay close to Shoals and underneath her as much as possible. This avoids her first kick, which will go right over Mr. N's head if spacing is right. This also avoids the certainly-incoming second kick, which should float right behind a grounded Mr. N. If you've spaced and timed this well, you should have an opportunity to "turn" and dive/kick Shoals on her recovery to the ground or in her second kick. Once the Shoals player gets wise to this, they'll be sure to dive and kick much lower to the ground. Welcome this change with a grounded special/kickback/kick of your very own, courtesy of your amazing dive height. One word of caution: be wary of her flight cancel, but otherwise you should be able to make her commit to a dive and react accordingly.


Vs. Jefailey

Verdict: Advantage
Gem: Kick/Style

Jefailey's dive height puts him at a disadvantage from the beginning of the match. Approach from the air as he charges his kick. His maximum kick angle puts Jefailey at an almost horizontal trajectory, so he'll keep you honest on the ground. Even if you somehow fall behind during the match, Jefailey's signature big head will be a perfect target for your approach using your aerial special (Marneto). You meter is vital in this matchup, as Jefailey can quickly charge with kickfactor or after more wins. Once his kick improves, stay high, Marneto, and react to his dives and kicks with appropriate punishment. Avoid Disqualification at all costs, as you'll need your Marnetos. A big-headed Jefailey with a quick charge can easily concuss Mr. N several times in a row because of how poor his movement becomes.


Vs. Kenny

Verdict: Slight Advantage
Gem: Dive

The Kenny matchup has to be taken as an average of all other character's matchups, so Mr. N has a slight advantage in this fight. At the start of the match, I'd always recommend that you kickback to start building meter and to find out what character Kenny is emulating. There's nothing worse than being caught by surprise by a 45 degree kick. Kenny's aerial special has to be avoided at all costs. Kickbacks and Marnetos will help you to avoid the approaching glowing dot, but if you are about to get hit by the dot, I'd suggest that you dive as high as possible. Only two characters in the game can dive close to as high as Mr. N can, so chances are Kenny won't be able to easily hit you. As soon as you come out of the freeze, Marneto and react to anything happening below. Dive gem is suggested here as the dive gem puts you in a favorable position in most matchups.


Vs. Kick

Verdict: Slight Advantage
Gem: Kick

With the help of the Dive gem, Mr. N is easily be able to out-height Kick. That being said, this is still a very reaction-based matchup because of Kick's kick angle. Most matches start with both players kick-backing for meter before jockeying for position. Kick's superior kickback will often lead him to build more meter. Space well and rely on the aerial special (Marneto) to avoid unsafe situations. Kick's grounded special shouldn't be too much of an issue as this tends to be an aerial fight. Once Kick gets kickfactor, the matchup changes significantly. Mr. N can defensively use his grounded special (GTFO), kickbacks, and even Marneto to avoid Kick's attacks, though.


Vs. Kung Pao

Verdict: Slight Disadvantage
Gem: Kick

At Kung Pao's maximum dive height, Mr. N can reactively dive and kick her out of the air. Because her kick is so shallow (15 degrees), even kickback kicks beat out her approaches from max dive height. Approach cautiously, anticipate her dives, and kickback/kick (or GTFO/kickback/kick if the spacing requires) if she comes towards you after a high dive. If you're already in the air after she kicks, a well-timed Marneto/kick should win the round. A smart Kung Pao, however, won't dive from the full height, and this is the real problem with the matchup: Kung Pao's ability to dive and kick very low to the ground. She basically eliminates Mr. N ground game (much like Markman) because of how shallow her kick is and how fast her dive is. Mr. N's best resort would then intuitively be to take to the skies, but any approach can be countered by a Kung Pao kick that places her right beneath you (which is a horribly dangerous place for her to be). In these instances, use Marneto to bait out a kick from Kung Pao and reactively kick afterward. It's to your advantage to avoid these situations altogether though, so try your best to not high dive close to Kung Pao. The best distance to be from Kung Pao to react is 2/3 screen. At any shorter range, Kung Pao's divekicks become almost unreactable and any further away, she has the tools to push you back to the corner (and you never want to be there). In the corner, Kung Pao can dive/kick on reaction to most of your dives even with Marneto available. Mr.N doesn't have any tools to get out of the corner safely either, as Kung Pao can dive and kick on reaction to this, too. Keep your distance, react to Kung Pao's approaches, and play patiently, as this matchup is mostly about waiting for her to make the mistakes so that you can capitalize.


Vs. Markman

Verdict: Disadvantage
Gem: Kick

In my opinion, this is Mr. N's worst matchup. Mr. N's very deep kick angle (60 degrees) and Markman's item pressure spell trouble for Mr. N's approach. As Mr. N, you'll frequently have to build meter on the sideline as Markman causally assembles his kickbox. The glue traps, blackholes, oil spills, and springs Markman toss are all deathtraps to Mr. N as they can be divekicked on reaction to contact. The gas leak item is also serious trouble, as Mr. N's only "safe" approach is with the use of Marneto. If you choose to hold back and build meter, Markman will likely start construction of his favorite divekick tool. Once Markman assembles his kickbox, Mr. N should quickly kickback/GTFO/Marneto as required to completely avoid the upkick-enabled approach. I find that a high dive/Marneto/kick can beat Markman's upkick, but your mileage may vary. Another option in this match is to rush Markman down. This is extremely difficult because of his items/kick angle (25 degrees), but if you can get within half-screen of him, you have yourself a real match. Markman has a low dive height, so your reactional dive/kick can be very powerful against a cornered opponent. Above all, play smart and let Markman's eventual (possibly upkicking/reckless) approach be his downfall. And if he doesn't maintain his item spacing, feel free to RTSD.


Vs. Mr. N (Mirror Match)

Verdict: Even
Gem: Dive

It's a mirror match, what can I say? In short, whoever dives first loses. You do need the dive gem though to either beat the other Mr. N's jump height or (more likely) to counter his dive gem pick. Also, be very quick and pick the pink duds before your opponent.


Vs. Redacted

Verdict: Even - Slight Disadvantage
Gem: Dive

Go into this match expecting to play patiently. Redacted's kick angle (55 degrees) is slightly more favorable in the matchup (compared to your 60 degrees). It may not seem like a lot, but since the dive height of both characters is so close, if you both dive at the same time, Redacted usually wins the mid-air kick war. This is why your patience is so important. First off, build meter. If you get into an aerial battle, you'll want to have some meter stocked for an emergency Marneto. Once your opponent realizes you're backing off, they may choose to use their grounded special to build meter or continue to kickback to do the same. This is bad for you because, as you may know, Redacted's kickfactor is ridiculous. (You will likely lose/be headshot/be frauded by Redacted if kickfactor is obtained because of her superior dive height/speed/etc.) Now, when you see the Redacted player backing off, it's time to apply pressure. Remember: no free meter for this character. It's a matter of spacing because of how similar the two characters' dive and kick tools are. The only real difference is speed. Try to use Redacted's fast fall speed to your advantage and try reaction dive/kicks. Occasionally you'll dive above a helpless Redacted only to hear a grunt, meaning that the wolver..I mean..skunk bear has bent over horizontally. It's not a very powerful tool in this matchup because of Mr. N's sharp kick angle, but be wary of it. I find that reactional Marnetos and cautious approaches push this matchup to be almost even, but of course, that all changes if you let Redacted get into kickfactor.


Vs. S-Kill

Verdict: Even - Slight Advantage
Gem: Dive

One of the strangest matchups, in my experience. The seemingly-random motion of S-Kill combined with his specials makes this a bizarre matchup to deal with. But that said, you have the tools to deal with him. First off, you do not want S-Kill to build meter. Once he gets his aerial special, S-Kill turns into an instant-strike machine and you will likely get headshot if he uses it. If he does manage to get meter, keep an eye on his meter gauge and jump on reaction to the aerial special's use. Okay, so since you don't want him to get meter, you have to rush him down/push him to the corner. That's not difficult because of Mr. N's dive height, which is made even better with the dive gem. Slowly and methodically make your way to S-Kill's side of the screen and, as you do, you'll build enough meter for a Marneto activation. Marneto is your key to the kills in this matchup. Since S-Kill can kick out of his jump OR his double jump (which are both sort of invincible), you have to be cautious when approaching in the air. That's why you have Marneto meter stocked - to jump in the area immediately in front of S-Kill's teleportation and react with a quick Marneto/dive to his motion. While you're closing the gap any time during the match, take quick peeks at S-Kill's meter gauge. You always have to be cautious of his aerial special that I mentioned before, but also of his grounded parry. In my experience, Mr. N's kick angle tends to hit a grounded S-Kill in the legs or in the head, but it is certainly possible to hit his extended fist. Don't hit his extended fist. It's basically an instant kill against Mr. N, and you'll regret it immediately. Instead, bait the parry out with your Marneto and kick your way to a possible headshot.


Vs. Stream

Verdict: Advantage
Gem: Dive

Stream has to play very defensively in this matchup because his attack angles just don't cut it against Mr. N. Stream does definitely has a dive height advantage, as his double jump gets him higher than Mr. N can ever dive, but this doesn't help much. If Stream's going to be jumping, Mr. N can be building meter. Stream can't build meter well because of his double-jump-before-diving requirement. If he does decide to double jump as low as possible before diving, Mr. N can easily capitalize with a swift dive/kick combo. If Stream ever decides to go on the offensive, Mr. N can jump over Stream's spiral kick (even if it's reangled), Marneto, and punish the monster in stylish fashion. Even if Stream's kick is performed over Mr. N's head, you can wait and punish the recovery after the kick fairly easily. Because Stream won't be building much meter in this fight, his flame special becomes practically a non-issue. Play patiently and build meter until Stream decides to come to you.


Vs. The Baz

Verdict: Major Advantage
Gem: Dive

The beginning of the match can start in two different ways: either The Baz begins his normal kickback-to-build-meter procedure or he goes on the attack immediately. First, we'll tackle the kickback strategy. Push The Baz to the wall by kickdashing his way. At the moment The Baz is finally cornered, the round is more or less won. The Baz's first option is to dive and aim a kick toward the middle of the screen (hopefully winning the round by hitting you or at least avoiding the corner). This is very easily punished by a reaction dive/kick from Mr. N. Remember: The Baz is fully punishable while creating the lightning trail and the lighting doesn't even show up until he finishes the path. This means that any time The Baz is coming your way, you can just dive and kick for the win. The second option The Baz has in the corner is to risk a sharply angled kick (almost at 90 degrees) and hope you'll recklessly kick over his head and hit the lightning. But you're not that impatient, are you? The last option The Baz has is to use his grounded special to shoot lighting from the sky. It'll fry you if you're above him or are kicking towards his domepiece, but your Marneto is the perfect tool to bait/avoid this, just like S-Kill's parry. And that's how all of The Baz's corner options are destroyed by Mr. N. But if he somehow does manage to get away, simply chase him to the opposite corner and lather, rinse, repeat. Eventually, this will frustrate The Baz, and he'll decide to stop his kickbacking procedure and immediately dive and kick toward you. Since you're kickdashing so cautiously (I know you are), you'll be able to kickback/kick or dive/kick his rush toward you. They might even use their webswing special, but again, a well-timed dive/kick combo will take The Baz out. Occasionally, your opponent may decide to engage in a horizontal lighting frenzy. Just dive/Marneto over this and return to the ground to continue your pressure. If The Baz manages to get kickfactor and turn into an invincible moving hitbox, just dive. Really, just dive. And, why not, you can even Marneto, too. Since the lightning is not a problem in kickfactor, you job is just to avoid The Baz. That's incredibly easy since his dive is so low and since his motion is purely horizontal. Once kickfactor's over, just rush him down again.


Vs. Uncle Sensei

Verdict: Advantage
Gem: Dive

Playing against Uncle Sensei takes patience. His constantly changing kicks require some sort of attention, but since your dive/Marneto combo outclasses most of Uncle Sensei's motion, it won't be too much of a problem. Let's first discuss the handkick. Its angle is very shallow (25 degrees, just like Shoals' first kick) but it is pretty fast. Be wary of beginning-of-the-round ankle snipes. This kick is the easiest to punish and to navigate around, so keep an eye out for these. When Uncle Sensei starts kicking in this manner, dive and kick. Your height destroys the angle of this kick, and the hurtbox of Uncle Sensei is incredibly large in this kick pose. I find myself hitting Sensei's back/legs on his return to the ground quite frequently. The second kick is angled the same as Mr. N's (60 degrees), but since you have the dive advantage, these kicks should be won by Mr. N or kickback'd if they're headed right at you. The only tricky part of this match is the midair kick-switching that can be done by Uncle Sensei. But that's really why you're playing so patiently/defensively, so that you can react to the easily punishable kicks from Sensei. You can freely build meter for Marnetos while Uncle Sensei feels out his approach. Sensei isn't great at building meter because of his alternating kick angles, but he rarely uses it anyway. Once Uncle Sensei does build enough meter, his grounded special becomes a threat. This special dive is so high that even Mr. N can't deal with it, so kickback or kickdash forward to avoid the aerial assault (it really depends on which kick mode Sensei is in).
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 12:52:42 am by TheCreaux »

Argenrost

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2013, 12:06:45 pm »
I'm happy to see that my model was good enough to be replicated.  :) Nice write-ups by the way, lots of great detail.
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Lucker McNoob

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2013, 07:51:10 am »
Mr. N is by far the least favourite character on these forums, and as far as I can tell not very well represented online (steam) either. And I just can't understand why! Excellent air play, fast ground play, headshot immunity and one of the best abilities in the game (magneto - the ability to float in the air).

Time to turn these boards around, and I'll start by commenting on your matchups. Just for reference: I'm top #5 player on Steam with Mr. N (been #1 a few times), and put in a lot of hours against high ranked (300+) players. So hopefully I know what I'm talking about.  :P

Dive
Verdict: Even, or slight disadvantage
Dive is one of the strongest characters in the game. Not alot of gimmicks but can be sooo powerful in the right hands. Positions and pacing is everything and if you're jumpy and twitchy a good Dive player will punish you. A lot.

Dr Shoals
Verdict: Even
If you pick dive gem and she goes for kick you have the advantage, make sure to punish her mistakes with some death from above! If you both go with same gems it's a pretty solid and fun matchup I think. Both characters have great air play so it comes down to the skills of the players.

Jefailey
Verdict: Advantage
Haven't played alot of Jefaileys sadly, and barely any good ones. Gut feeling says Mr. N has the advantage because of high speed and better air play.

Kenny
Verdict: Dunno :P
Depends on the player, I guess. I find a good tactic to just rush him down fast as hell, before he can figure out which character he is and adjust his tactics accordingly.

Kick
Verdict: Advantage
Kick is my second favourite character because of speed, ground play and ability to punish fools! I think Mr. N is slighty better though, much thanks to Magneto that can play mindtricks on the punishing Kick player.

Kung Pao
Verdict: Advantage
The player that doesn't screw up wins the game, as both these characters are very good at punishing each other. Mr. N dominates air play though, and with a kick gem and smart use of magneto he can surely bring pain upon Pao without too much hassle.

Markman
Verdict: Disadvantage
The only character that I think has a clear advantage over poor Mr. N. A Markman player who knows what he is doing will use a lot of items, which Mr. N have a difficult time avoiding because of his kick angle. As if that isn't bad enough, Mr. N also need to push forward in this situation so that Markman doesn't find his uber upkick, and while doing so Markman will have a pretty easy time picking him off with his punishing kick. Markman can also counter magneto with his back kick thingy. A real challenge and the worst matchup for Mr. N in my opinion! (but totally winnable still!)

Mr. N
Verdict: Even
Just like you say TheCreaux: In short, whoever dives first loses. Dive gem is a must, as well as the pink duds.

Redacted
Verdict: Advantage
Magneto saves the day in this otherwise pretty close matchup. Good Redacted players seem to push opponents into the corner, make sure to punish such behaviour.

S-Kill
Verdict: Advantage?
Sadly I haven't played a lot of really skilled S-kills, so it's difficult to say for sure. However, once again Magneto is very useful for playing mindgames on the opponent, tricking him into messing up and punishing hard. I also like to push forward fast against S-kill and mix up my movements a lot so he can't read me well. Might have to come back and change my opinion on this in the future though.

Stream
Verdict: Advantage
A good Stream can be very tricky, but Mr. N can punish hard with Magneto and high dive height. I like to play semi-aggressive against Stream to force mistakes.

The Baz
Verdict: Huge Advantage
You can attack pretty fast when he builds meter, and when he tries to dash to the other corner just dive and kick him in the face. If you mess up your timings magneto is your friend.

Uncle Sensei
Verdict: Slight Advantage
Both are very good air play characters, but even though Sensei has two different kicks I think Mr. N is slightly better because of speed and magneto. Sensei is super rare on Steam though and I haven't had the pleasure to fight him a lot, so maybe I'm wrong.

To sum things up: Markman is the worst matchup, others are pretty even or to Mr. N's advantage. He's a great character and more people should play him.  8)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 08:10:49 am by Lucker McNoob »

Lucker McNoob

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2013, 07:58:20 am »
I am error  >:(
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 08:03:52 am by Lucker McNoob »

then3xus

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2013, 04:16:41 am »
Mr. N is indeed underrepresented, but he's so fun to play. I think I'll be making him my 2nd character. He looks like an uber defensive character based on his abilities and kick angle. Maybe he's just meant tobe played in a very different way than the rest of the cast.....

MushroomGas

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 02:59:48 am »
I want to share my experience playing Mr. N, as right now I have over 2000 ranked games played with him and plenty more in practice. Instead of listing out all of the matchups as TheCreaux and Lucker McNoob did though, I just wanted to address some of my disagreements with their evaluations.

I use the Dive gem in every matchup except for Mr. N. vs Kung Pao, where I use the kick gem.

The most prominent difference in my opinion is for Mr. N vs Dr. Shoals. When Mr. N picks the dive gem, he has a massive advantage vs Shoals, and I never expect to lose a match when it is lag free. Aside from potentially Jefailey, this is Mr. N's easiest matchup in the game. You start of each round hesitantly dive-kick spamming (dive-kick very quickly in succession) towards the Shoals player, and if they have not made a kick yet themselves, perform a dive-kick that aims to land slightly in front of Shoals. It must be just far enough away that she can't hit you on your way down, and close enough that you can't be kicked when you land. It's pretty easy to achieve during a game. Once you safely enter that critical range, you dive-kick spam to stay under the Shoals while building meter. If Shoals kicks away to create a gap, you can repeat the actions you made at the beginning of the round to once again get under, or you can full jump and marneto at the apex to rise up, killing Shoals when she kicks. Against a kick gem Shoals, you can be quite close when you full jump, but against a dive gem shoals you should have a distance equal to about 3 Mr. N body widths. As long as you successfully marneto (rising up) you have secured the kill.

Kung Pao holds more than just a slight advantage vs Mr. N, but rather a pretty serious one. I believe that this is the second worst matchup in the game for him (worst being vs Markman). TheCreaux has the analysis right, but I think he wasn't hard enough on Mr. N's chances. There are two ways Mr. N can kill Kung Pao: He can kickback over top of a Kung Pao committed to a kick and come down on top of her leg, and he can jump up and marneto, hoping that Kung Pao kicks under him while he happily floats above before striking on top of her. The problem is that Mr. N has no approach on Kung Pao from a neutral situation where she sits approximately 2 Mr. N body widths away. She will just kick back and time each kick to land in the same spot to keep this distance. Mr. N's only option here is to inch forward, full jump, inch forward, full jump, and so on until Kung Pao is on the side wall. The problem with this is that any properly timed dive-kick from Kung Pao while you are inching forward kills you immediately. In the inch forward sequence, I urge Mr. N's to full jump after inching rather than just standing still and reacting because with well timed kickbacks Kung Pao can push you right back.

It seems clear that Markman is the worst matchup for Mr. N, and both of our analysts and myself agree on that. What they also agree on is that Markman can pull plenty of items and assemble a kickbox and comfortably achieve victory. This is where I disagree; Markman hurts his chances of winning the matchup when he pulls items. The best way to play Markman in the matchup is to spam the kick button until he gets his air special, and then Mr. N stands no chance if he is against a strong Markman user, because the Mr. N kick is to steep to ever approach the Markman in a way that covers the feint option. To expand on why items are quite bad, Markman's oil gives Mr. N his only realistic chance to approach Markman while he is using kickbacks because Mr. N will have more space control, and if Markman tries to slip underneath Mr. N marneto can be used to stop Mr. N's forward momentum and the correct kill angle can be achieved. With all other junk items, Mr. N can just rhythmically kick back and kick, building meter and staying out of the item, until oil is pulled, giving him an attack option. Against the kickbox, most Markman players forget about the utility of the feint, and try to catch you with an upward kick. A well timed rising marneto followed by a swift kick will embarrass the over-zealous Markman. Still though, an item heavy Markman holds a solid edge over Mr. N.

There are some other small differences between the guides here and my opinions, but they aren't super significant. I'm happy to share more of my thoughts on Mr. N's matchups.

then3xus

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 04:14:50 am »
^ this guy's Mr. N is hella annoying. that is all...

Lucker McNoob

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2013, 05:19:36 am »
Good stuff MushroomGas (we fought a couple of days ago, yes?  :) ).

Some weeks has gone by since my post, and some of my opinions have changed. I totally agree with your opinions on Shoals, and to be honest i think she is a bit of an overrated character overall (though still quite powerful).

I would say that Kung Pao vs Mr. N is a pretty even match up, still dependant on who makes the least mistakes. Both characters are really good at punishing each other.

That said I'm starting to see the flaws with Mr. N, his weird kickbox and the fact that good players can anticipate the magneto. He is still a very good character in my opinion, but not as good as in my "OMG HE IS SO GODLIKE"-original post here.  :-\

I still play Mr. N regularly but also main Stream these days.

Out of curiosity: Why do you (almost) always go for dive gem? Against characters where I have clear height advantage (even if they pick dive gem) I think the kick gem is really good for a little extra speed and ability to punish. 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 05:36:05 am by Lucker McNoob »

MushroomGas

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2013, 03:36:15 pm »
Hi Lucker McNoob, I always pick the dive gem for two reasons. The less important one is that with the dive gem, when you jump, you leave the ground faster, so against anybody who kicks 45 degrees (Dive and Kick) or lower (Markman, Kung Pao, Sensei) I have a slightly easier time baiting them, because I can go in deeper with my pokes because I can get out of the way of their kicks faster. In this situation, kick speed doesn't matter because they should still be stuck under me while kicking forward, so I just land on their head. This is not perfectly true for Markman because he has his feint, and every time I play him I am conflicted on which gem to use because the kick gem might allow me to snap him off before he feints. To this day however I still trust the dive gem against Markman.

The only exception to my dive gem is Kung Pao. I choose the kick gem because her kick is basically unreactable at certain distances. The only way to safely space against her reliably is to stay in a range where either gem will allow you to jump over one of her kicks. For this reason I use the kick gem, so I can catch her before she hits the ground and gets a chance to use that incredible kickback.

The more important and generally applicable purpose of the dive gem is that you get more height, so you control more space. You see that Mr. N has a bad hitbox, and that he really needs to get on top of characters to kill them. You're right, with most characters kick gem Mr. N allows you to jump considerably higher than them anyways, so you can get on top. The problem is that you don't get on top enough. The triangle of space that you control often isn't enough with the kick gem to catch a character using a kickback, especially since Mr. N jumps high enough that even with the kick gem it is quite easy for your opponents to react to and avoid where you are coming down. A major complement to this is that the dive gem affords much more opportunity for marneto baiting. If you use the kick gem and your initial float makes you descend rather than rise up, a good opponent can often kill you right there. With the dive gem you have enough room to play around with the marneto and even hop out of it if you are descending, and then aim for the back shoulders of your opponent.

then3xus

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2013, 03:56:42 pm »
Hi Lucker McNoob, I always pick the dive gem for two reasons. The less important one is that with the dive gem, when you jump, you leave the ground faster, so against anybody who kicks 45 degrees (Dive and Kick) or lower (Markman, Kung Pao, Sensei) I have a slightly easier time baiting them, because I can go in deeper with my pokes because I can get out of the way of their kicks faster. In this situation, kick speed doesn't matter because they should still be stuck under me while kicking forward, so I just land on their head. This is not perfectly true for Markman because he has his feint, and every time I play him I am conflicted on which gem to use because the kick gem might allow me to snap him off before he feints. To this day however I still trust the dive gem against Markman.

The only exception to my dive gem is Kung Pao. I choose the kick gem because her kick is basically unreactable at certain distances. The only way to safely space against her reliably is to stay in a range where either gem will allow you to jump over one of her kicks. For this reason I use the kick gem, so I can catch her before she hits the ground and gets a chance to use that incredible kickback.

The more important and generally applicable purpose of the dive gem is that you get more height, so you control more space. You see that Mr. N has a bad hitbox, and that he really needs to get on top of characters to kill them. You're right, with most characters kick gem Mr. N allows you to jump considerably higher than them anyways, so you can get on top. The problem is that you don't get on top enough. The triangle of space that you control often isn't enough with the kick gem to catch a character using a kickback, especially since Mr. N jumps high enough that even with the kick gem it is quite easy for your opponents to react to and avoid where you are coming down. A major complement to this is that the dive gem affords much more opportunity for marneto baiting. If you use the kick gem and your initial float makes you descend rather than rise up, a good opponent can often kill you right there. With the dive gem you have enough room to play around with the marneto and even hop out of it if you are descending, and then aim for the back shoulders of your opponent.
This is similar to the logic I'm beginning to use with most of these same matchups as Kick except I don't have Mr.N's height so my timings are more strict. I must totally agree with the dive gem logic against us 450 kickers, as MushroomGas has certainly baited me into sometimes even headshots. I bet I only miss your toes by a few frames but it works.

Lucker McNoob

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2013, 01:01:00 pm »
Hi Lucker McNoob, I always pick the dive gem for two reasons. The less important one is that with the dive gem, when you jump, you leave the ground faster, so against anybody who kicks 45 degrees (Dive and Kick) or lower (Markman, Kung Pao, Sensei) I have a slightly easier time baiting them, because I can go in deeper with my pokes because I can get out of the way of their kicks faster. In this situation, kick speed doesn't matter because they should still be stuck under me while kicking forward, so I just land on their head. This is not perfectly true for Markman because he has his feint, and every time I play him I am conflicted on which gem to use because the kick gem might allow me to snap him off before he feints. To this day however I still trust the dive gem against Markman.

The only exception to my dive gem is Kung Pao. I choose the kick gem because her kick is basically unreactable at certain distances. The only way to safely space against her reliably is to stay in a range where either gem will allow you to jump over one of her kicks. For this reason I use the kick gem, so I can catch her before she hits the ground and gets a chance to use that incredible kickback.

The more important and generally applicable purpose of the dive gem is that you get more height, so you control more space. You see that Mr. N has a bad hitbox, and that he really needs to get on top of characters to kill them. You're right, with most characters kick gem Mr. N allows you to jump considerably higher than them anyways, so you can get on top. The problem is that you don't get on top enough. The triangle of space that you control often isn't enough with the kick gem to catch a character using a kickback, especially since Mr. N jumps high enough that even with the kick gem it is quite easy for your opponents to react to and avoid where you are coming down. A major complement to this is that the dive gem affords much more opportunity for marneto baiting. If you use the kick gem and your initial float makes you descend rather than rise up, a good opponent can often kill you right there. With the dive gem you have enough room to play around with the marneto and even hop out of it if you are descending, and then aim for the back shoulders of your opponent.

Thanks, will try that out!

Fuzzmosis

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2013, 04:00:18 am »
I just had some Matchups with Dr. Shoals (Played by Moonbeams) tonight and got devastated.

Now, what concerned me was Moonbeams would, at any time, stop and re-start his kick, including changing directions, which made my short game a suicide game (Over my head from one side turns into an immediate headshot from the other, or chest shot if I've already turned and began building meter towards him), basically turning the match into "Can I jump higher than her AND can she not dodge my kick by changing stances and stopping in midair?".

Anyone got any experience with how to handle that?

Remember, I may be bad, but Schoals was easy to handle until now.

then3xus

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2013, 11:08:56 pm »
I just had some Matchups with Dr. Shoals (Played by Moonbeams) tonight and got devastated.

Now, what concerned me was Moonbeams would, at any time, stop and re-start his kick, including changing directions, which made my short game a suicide game (Over my head from one side turns into an immediate headshot from the other, or chest shot if I've already turned and began building meter towards him), basically turning the match into "Can I jump higher than her AND can she not dodge my kick by changing stances and stopping in midair?".

Anyone got any experience with how to handle that?

Remember, I may be bad, but Schoals was easy to handle until now.
Moonbeams and I had a pretty good session yesterday. It's mainly Kick (my main) vs. Dr. Shoals, but when I busted out my pocket Mr. N, I got him in a few matches I believe. If I remember, I'll post the link to it after I upload it on youtube.

Edit: here it is finally! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L-E8wgXDPQ

or if you only care about the Mr. N stuff - http://youtu.be/1L-E8wgXDPQ?t=12m55s
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 12:12:29 am by then3xus »

Moonbeams

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2013, 10:34:08 am »
I don't like my name being on something that also says "a bunch of casuals".

Gunthor the Perilous

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Re: The Official Mr. N Matchup Thread
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2013, 12:43:44 pm »
What's wrong with casual matches?  :-X