Author Topic: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread  (Read 14704 times)

MCZ FiyahLiger

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2013, 09:47:12 pm »
Must be someone here just targeting people and spamming them with negative Karma. Oh well, it's whatever.

I'm going to be playing online a lot more frequently this weekend when I'm not at events; I'm hosting a small fighting game tourney tomorrow and going to CEO Bar Fights on Sunday, but in the meantime hopefully I'll learn a bit more about crucial match-ups.

Also I need to take my #1 spot back from FiyahLiger. You and your 300+ games up on me.  :P

That's only cuz I went ham on day one, other then that I don't play as much now xD
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Gunthor the Perilous

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2013, 05:26:31 am »
Don't feel too bad. Someone hit me with a -1 for thirteen hours one day. That was certainly a treat.

If you have meter for feral stance, is there ever a reason to kickback instead of reverse jumping out of the feral? Easier to space, faster I do believe, and you are less likely to be punished.

Argenrost

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2013, 08:42:38 am »
In my personal experience, FD-FK is nice but... it's very difficult to execute perfectly, which you would need to do to be able to effectively "retreat" with it. Thrown in occasionally it is a good tool for both building meter and creating space, but Redacted isn't really dependent on meter (save for gaining the ability to use Feral Stance in the first place) and using kickback is both easier and safer. FD-FK requires committing to the entire series of inputs, whereas kickback still gives you the option to kick, and in particular spacings in certain match-ups this is an absolutely vital option to have.

I exclusively use FD-FK to punish people who overshoot their kicks, mostly notably against Kung Pao, S-Kill, and Shoals, but with the right spacing it works against just about everyone. The nice thing about FD-FK is that Feral Stance locks you into the direction you're facing until you exit the stance, so if you perfectly FD out of it you will always turn in the opposite direction of how you started the stance regardless of if they cross you over or not.
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Argenrost

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2013, 06:17:05 pm »
Hey dudes! Updates! Possibly helpful and marginally more insightful information! Skunk-bears for life! Et cetera!
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WHATWHAT

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2013, 07:29:07 pm »
been playing against a really good sensei player a lot

I'd say the matchup is pretty much dead even.  Redacted is sick at punishing commitments, and sensei is great at pushing people back against the wall and creating baits.  The real wildcards are if redacted can get kick factor and if sensei can get headshots.  Most of the senseis online are total ass, so it's hard to get a good feel for the matchup.  Good senseis will not typically superman punch you from halfway across the screen and just let you react to them.  The one key thing to remember is that you can never assume what the sensei is going to throw at you based on his stance: there's a ton of ways for him to instantly change stances through plinking (the guy I was playing against would sometimes stance switch 2-3 times mid-air in certain circumstances).  If you can get on the other side of him when he's trying to corner you, it's a great opportunity to build meter.  Kick factor redacted is definitely desirable in this matchup.

Argenrost

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2013, 05:42:32 pm »
Hey guys, big update for The Baz courtesy of Gunthor the Perilous. The match-up can be pretty frustrating until you start putting a few certain concepts into action, then it becomes very interesting.
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RealRockNRolla

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2013, 06:41:03 pm »
played a Markman in the Forum Warriors tourney and got double-Frauded...

either i really suck or Feint makes Markman's edge on Redacted much more significant.  it's probably both, though.
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Argenrost

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2013, 07:51:28 pm »
It's one of those things where you pretty much have to play against Markman enough to know what to look for, and until then you're probably going to get bodied. Whenever I lose a crap-ton of points in ranked, more often than not it's because I get beat by some random Markman player, and usually it's because I get hit with a head shot off of a Feint.

I honestly don't think it's any worse than 6-4 in Markman's favor but that only holds true if you have a sufficient amount of experience playing against him. If you can properly anticipate Feint and he gets too aggressive after he does it, it's pretty much a free head shot. But you have to play chicken with it whenever he has the meter to do it.

To be perfectly honest, most Markman players seem to heavily project their Feint attempts because it's only useful for baiting an opponent into trying to punish an obviously bad commit. Everyone will fall for it the first few times, but once you know what to look for it's simply a matter of calling him out on it.

Markman's going to be a top-tier character no matter what happens at this rate, but once people start figuring out how to properly deal with Feint I don't think he's going to be as dominant as he seems at the moment.
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RealRockNRolla

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2013, 09:36:30 pm »
It's one of those things where you pretty much have to play against Markman enough to know what to look for, and until then you're probably going to get bodied. Whenever I lose a crap-ton of points in ranked, more often than not it's because I get beat by some random Markman player, and usually it's because I get hit with a head shot off of a Feint.

I honestly don't think it's any worse than 6-4 in Markman's favor but that only holds true if you have a sufficient amount of experience playing against him. If you can properly anticipate Feint and he gets too aggressive after he does it, it's pretty much a free head shot. But you have to play chicken with it whenever he has the meter to do it.

To be perfectly honest, most Markman players seem to heavily project their Feint attempts because it's only useful for baiting an opponent into trying to punish an obviously bad commit. Everyone will fall for it the first few times, but once you know what to look for it's simply a matter of calling him out on it.

Markman's going to be a top-tier character no matter what happens at this rate, but once people start figuring out how to properly deal with Feint I don't think he's going to be as dominant as he seems at the moment.

i guess it doesn't help that A. i suck at Divekick really badly and B. i was playing the #2 ranked player online.
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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2013, 10:03:18 pm »
It's alright, dude, it's still a really tough match-up. And it's really tough to do well with Redacted unless you exhibit a lot of patience in all your match-ups. She's a lot harder to work with than people seem to recognize, I think. The only other character I have as much of a challenging time doing well with is S-Kill. Redacted's fundamentals are really strange.
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CanadianBaconz

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2013, 01:13:21 am »
I had posted this elsewhere, but it obviously makes more sense here, and I've added/will add some more thoughts.

Quote from: CanadianBaconz
As a Kung Pao, Redacted is honestly a pretty tough match-up for me. Since the discovery and now continued use of the feral stance techs, things have gotten to be a lot riskier.

Before, Kung Pao had essentially 2 big places where she could go hard on Redacted; when Red is advancing too hard, or when she's standing still too close(Not necessarily the unreactable range, somewhat further than that.), where Kung can Divekick high without fear of punishment. Redacted could duck under the high DK easily with FS, but then she had no real follow up, and Kung is in a good spot to keep the pressure on.

Now, if you try to do that, Redacted is in a perfect position to Feral Divekick you right in the face. If you try to go low instead of high to avoid this, you're setting yourself up for Red to either DK or KK punish you with ease, possibly resulting in HS. To land a safe attack now, you need to be Kicking at a very particular range and height to hit the sweet spot of being high enough for at least the KK react not to hit, while still being able to hit them if they go Feral instead. That's a very hard thing to do.

So that leaves the overaggressive advance to punish for. Because of Red's ridiculous speed, she spends the vast majority of her time on the ground, where she has her options. So, it's very hard to land a punish on reaction if they stay mobile, and catch them in the air while they're diving or kicking. That means that the game is all about reads, although against a lower level player those reads are easy. For Kung Pao, who is primarily a reactionary punishment character, this takes some time to adapt to.

Because of the way Redacted works, Kung Pao does have some strange options in the matchup, like Ground Special dodges, but because it plays out differently, this is one Kung needs to get a lot of practice in for higher levels.

I would still probably rate the matchup in Kung's favour, but it's a hard fought one, and not a major advantage. I wouldn't rate it higher than a 6-4. No cruise control on this one.

What I'm going to outline is what a Redacted should be doing, from a Kung Pao player's perspective of what gets me killed, and a couple things you should not do. Some of this matches up with what Argenrost posted in the OP, but I hope to expand a little.

Unreactables

Do NOT get yourself into her unreactable range without already preparing your follow up movement. I cannot stress this enough, the unreactable is one of Kung Pao's best tools. You need to be on the go BEFORE you're actually in that range, so that HER reaction speed won't be up to snuff in punishing you with her unreactable. So, that means you need to learn her unreactable Divekick(Henceforth described as a UDK) range intimately, and take advantage of her tendency to jump at the chance to use it whenever possible. You can't react to the UDK, but you can bait it out and punish it by putting yourself into it's range then acting immediately. This caveat applies also to when she's moving in on you; Learn where her kicks are going land, and when you see her inching in to her UDK range, react on the kick leading in to the UDK, not the UDK itself.
Now, as for what you can do when preparing for the UDK, Feral Stance is, as somewhat mentioned in the above quote block, godly. Also an option, KB or Diving not quite immediately after landing, but a very, very small amount of time after, can give you the effective punish. FS, though, is your main tool. Feral Stancing to FDK is a great punish for the UDK because of how close to your back it'll bring her, and results in a headshot often.

Which brings me to an important point:

Concussed Kung Pao

Kung Pao has both a terrible stun state, and at the same time great one because of misperceptions . Her Kickbacks, Dives, and Kicks are all terribly slow moving when she's in this state, making her ridiculously easy to punish or chase down, and even chain headshots for a height advantage character like Redacted.
However, one very important thing to keep in mind is that while her kick movement speed is horrendous, her startup for it is completely unaffected. What this means in practical terms is that she still has an UDK range. It's a tad shorter than her normal one, but it still exists, and is very dangerous if you don't respect it. It can lead to headshot turnarounds if you aren't careful. Also a consequence of all this is that if you move in close while she's kicking back, that KBK can still come out very fast.
Basically, you want to move in on her, keeping enough space between the two of you that her kicks aren't instant, while a full height DK from you will come raining down on her. That way, she'll be forced to move back until she's in the corner, and if she ever tries to kick at you, she'll be too far and you can DK or KBK punish the slow moving target with ease.

That's all for now, I'll update more later. Next up is probably general spacing and movement, then portals, then Kickfactor. If there's anything else not covered here, feel free to make a request, and if you have disagreements/additional insights, I wanna hear 'em.


TL;DR:

Unreactables: Kung Pao's unreactable is godlike. Never be in that range for long, you need to be moving before it comes out. Feral Stance and the Divekick out of it are Godlike for UDK attempt whiffs.

Concussed: Movement is super slow, but start up on kicks is unaffected. Don't get close in front of her.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 01:21:42 am by CanadianBaconz »

Argenrost

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2013, 08:53:45 pm »
What's up, Skunk-Bears? I wanted to leave another post here with a quick note for you guys, because I feel getting this out there will help some people understand and get us all to improve.

The match-up information I've compiled into this thread assumes, obviously, offline play. The information is becoming more and more consistent as I play more, because some of the early information was admittedly based on impressions gathered from online play. Offline and online have always caused some measure of difficulty in fighting games, but Divekick is showing itself to be the type of game where match-ups can be skewed dramatically between offline and online play.

That having been said, match-ups like Kung Pao, Markman, and The Baz are going to be a lot harder when the connection isn't extremely good. Try to keep this in mind, but (of course) try not to use it as an excuse to write off losses; use it as an opportunity to learn how to play more solid. Solid play that isn't entirely based on reactions can go a long way in both offline and online play. Hence why I've been trying to focus more and more of my match-up breakdowns on emphasizing solid play. Sometimes situations will come down to needing godlike reactions, and sometimes you'll get screwed out of them. It happens.

Just something to keep in mind to help everyone to improve their game. If you primarily play online and have some measure of success with tactics I've attempted to outline, trust me: these tactics are at least twice as effective in offline play.
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Mundungu

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2013, 10:41:04 pm »
I completely agree with Offline vs Online.  I just recently started playing against a lot of different good players online, and a lot of my offline strats don't really work when you have a little bit of lag.  Playing online a lot will teach you the basics of matchups, and how to play really safe, but it doesn't do much for your punish game.

I'm really surprised about the Baz update.  I always thought Redacted crushed the Baz.  I would have to see that to believe it.  Maybe I'll get some matches in with that guy to see what's up.

Argenrost

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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2013, 11:49:34 pm »
IMO the match-up has always been even because both characters have to play completely outside of their comfort zone, and every time The Baz commits to an offensive angle you have to make a pretty solid guess or lose the round. It's really not as easy as you would think.

Gunthor's Baz is really solid and playing against him taught me a lot about how to properly play the match-up. Most of my online losses are to mildly competent Baz players that involve me making a lot of poor decisions. But the nature of the match-up dictates that you don't have much of a choice but to take risks. Online makes the match-up mildly harder but it's notably one of Redacted's trickier match-ups to play solidly.
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Re: The Official Redacted Match-Up Thread
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2013, 11:59:23 pm »
I've found a lot of baz's matchups are very 50-50, but it seems to have such a high variance.  I'll routinely go 5-1 and then have them come right back and fraud me the next round.  It feels like if either player makes a mistake the other ones just instantly loses the round, where as in the other matchups sometimes you just give up a little bit of space.