Author Topic: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid  (Read 17310 times)

DaiAndOh

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S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« on: August 19, 2013, 11:34:39 pm »
Yes, I got her permission to post this, etc.

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Preface: Not included in the original post, I wanted to write about how S-Kill works.
 
S-Kill's basic movement is "teleportation." He has an air jump, as well. He first disapppears, then moves at a constant speed up (dive) or up-back (kickback), then reappears and falls down. This can be interrupted at any time by air kickback or air jump if you haven't used it, or by divekick if you have, so you can basically choose where to reappear anywhere in a cone of up-up to up-back up-back. While he is invisible, he is also COMPLETELY INVULNERABLE, but he can be hit while appearing and disappearing.
S-Kill's divekick goes at a fairly low angle, but isn't super low. It is pretty slow, though. Like, really slow. This is why I think kick gem is by far the best gem to mitigate his greatest weakness, because you get to the ground faster for slight extra metergain, and it makes your movement safer and your punishes a bit stronger.
S-Kill's ground special, Parry, costs about 20%. While he's doing it, if the opponent hits him above the waist, he says "WHAT AN ANSWER!" and instantly appears behind in a position to hit them, with them being frozen in place during this time. This is a kill basically every time, and the way it works is such that it's almost always a headshot too. But he is still vulnerable to toetaps, and it does have a bit of recovery.
S-Kill's air special, Trick, costs about 65%. It teleports you to directly in front of and above the opponent with instantaneous movement - the same general area as Parry, but in front of the opponent instead of behind them. This usually gets headshots if the opponent isn't moving, but it's not exactly guaranteed because it doesn't briefly freeze their movement like Parry does, and it takes longer to come out of it before you can take more actions, so if they're moving you won't quite get them. Offensively it's a move for punishes, but really, its strength comes from how you can do it at any time in the air, before or after your air jump and even after your kick (and then doing another kick.) It has more startup than his normal teleport, as well, and even though it shares the same animation there is a brief window after becoming invisible where he can be struck.

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Post-Evo thoughts on S-Kill
 
His strengths are even better than I originally thought! But he has a lot of weaknesses, too. His poor movement makes him easy to chase down and you need to be really on point to deal with it. Thankfully his parry is apparently tons more godlike than I originally thought. I was playing under the impression it didn't protect his head... But it does. So there's more things I can do now. For instance, that changes the matchup vs Shoals into something I think is 10-0. The metergain buff is huge.
 
S-Kill's strengths are of course in not letting the opponent be aware of what you're doing. However, moving effectively with him is hard - if the opponent knows how he works they can pressure you, and it's hard for S-Kill to deal with it. Low angle approaches are really strong, he's very vulnerable to toe taps. And he's very vulnerable to people kickbacking out of the way of your attacks, for reasons I'll get into. THAT SAID, if you press your ground, the opponent has a 50/50 guess at best - will you divekick in place to punish toetaps, or will you parry to punish high-angle attacks? For this reason, if you have good movement and can mask your presence, you can be very strong.
 
Diving repeatedly in front of your opponent can be a strong tactic that can force the opponent to give you space, but it's not nearly as strong as I thought it was initially. For most characters, if you do this, their attempts to get in are reactionable with air teleport to divekick punishes, so they want to build meter or start playing footsies because, when you're doing this, you're building little meter and can't really get in yourself. However, this tactic is much less effective against characters like Dive, Kick, Markman, Shoals, and Kung Pao, who can stuff you fairly easily if you go for that.  You can attempt to call them out, of course, but if you're wrong then they can punish you if you aren't able to trick to safety, so overall it's stacked against you. Luckily, though, S-Kill has a favorable (but not easy) time against markman and kung pao because of how his specials work against them, and Shoals, I already went into that. Dive and Kick, though, have the strongest footsies in the game, and this sort of tactic is just not great against them.
 
When I previously described S-Kill as the best character in the game, what I was really saying was that he was the best bully in the game. If people don't understand the matchup, they lose. That's kinda true in general, but I think for S-Kill it's the most pronounced. You can be a scrub and beat people the heck up if they don't know what to do. He's the clearest punish character in the game, to be sure - if the opponent makes a mistake, you are THERE, probably with a headshot. That's really what S-Kill is about - punishing people.
 
But although he's very good at punishes, his movement is just very slow, and it is VERY easy to make mistakes with him. You can be "safe-ish" but fast characters will have you on blast if you aren't cautious. Even with Trick, the ability to be invincible, and Parry, his defense is far from flawless - everyone else can jump instantly, but S-Kill stays where he is with 6 vulnerable frames. In other words, if the opponent has the right read, they have time to get at you when everyone else would be free from their clutches, and attempts to hit them, if they get out of the way, leave him vulnerable to being immediately toetapped before he can retreat. In other words, the same defensive tools that work for everyone else, are less effective as S-Kill. And because his divekick and fall are so slow, a lot of times the opponent can just break you if you back away. I tried a sort of patient "wait for the opponent to make a mistake" style against Kerahime and it resulted in being double frauded.
 
So, then, you might ask. "S-Kill needs to punish people's mistakes, but if they're cautious and play footsies well, is S-Kill useless at high-level?" Clearly not. I won against a lot of scrubs to get where I got, but I fought against a lot of strong players and won there as well. My feeling is still that S-Kill isn't too bad against Dive and Kick (though he certainly doesn't have them on lock), but I just played COMPLETELY WRONG against Kerahime, he knew the matchup better than me. At the time of top 8, I just wasn't ready to deal with his pressure. But I learned a lot from that, and I applied some of it during my later fights with G and MeanSaltine... Although, since I'd just formulated it, it was hardly perfect, and I of course lost to MeanSaltine after he was able to force myself back into my bad habits and run it back on me in a close fight that I feel could've gone either way - Although it wasn't obvious to those watching, in the last round, I went for parry as soon as I landed, which would've worked, but I mistimed it and thus lost. Yes, even divekick has execution. Of course, I'm not going to say that I "should have won," just that I "could have won," haha!
 
It's true that S-Kill thrives on the mistakes of the opponent more than anyone else in the game. But while his footsies game is weak, he does have other tools, and S-Kill's "presence" can also force people to make those mistakes. By moving carefully and staying close to the ground, and keeping your options masked by not obviously double teleporting except as a specific punish, you can keep away from obvious punishes. Pressing the opponent forward by staying at that uncomfortable distance where their toetaps are readable and you have parry ready, inching forward if they ever budge, is a powerful tactic. Of course, this isn't foolproof, but the interplay of it vs your opponent doing the same it establishes that yes, you too can play that game - If you have parry meter, then going after you carries risks, even though your defensive options have holes. Because you're invisible so much, your "slightly retreating" and "slightly advancing," while not as strong as your opponent's ways to do the same, are muddling. Since they can't always tell what you're doing, you can establish a wall and prevent people from just reacting to you - you can get in their head very effectively if you don't let yourself get cornered. Because of this S-Kill's defensive play is very strong and in many cases pressing the opponent forward and allowing themselves to just not be able to reclaim the line forces them into lose-lose situations. And of course, If the opponent is cornered, they can't back away from Trick.
 
S-Kill's specials are simply the best in the game, and they make up for his slow mobility. I already talked about Parry and how it makes a lot of things by the opponent unsafe, but, I'd also like to talk about using Trick defensively. Trick is is an INCREDIBLE defensive tool. Trick allows you to "un-commit" to failed callouts by activating it after a kick, which is crazy powerful. There were so many times where I was "wrong" about my callout, and when they went to punish I Tricked to safety, or tricked into killing them. Buffering Trick when you're not sure if your basic divekick will hit is great, because it won't come out if you killed them but if you didn't then you can go again from another situation without the slow speed of his kick getting you down. Offensively, you have clear headshots against people who aren't moving, and if you didn't use an air option earlier, which lets you do things like punish kickbacks with trick-airjump-kick. And, in kick factor, you can Trick twice before landing, good for both offense and defense. I shouldn't have to explain how powerful that is. So while S-Kill's defensive game with "normal" options is poor... He has more than enough of his own. In some ways, S-Kill isn't playing the same game as everyone else.
 
The more I think about it, the more ways I think of ways to use his tools. S-Kill is probably one of the hardest characters to play well, but... I still believe S-Kill has the potential to be the best character in this game. I just wasn't at the level where I could show that to everyone when I went to Evo.

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UPDATE WITH ADVANCED TACTICS:

Advanced S-Kill tactics

- If you don't have meter for Trick, you can buffer Parry in early during a jump to have it always come out frame 1 of landing recovery and catch people chasing you down.

- Catch people unaware with K~D kara trick. the K will generate meter, allowing you to perform Trick from a little bit under the normal required meter. This also causes a kick to always come out - frame 1 after trick, so you can get your punish perfectly with it. This forced kick will happen any time you trick during a kick, so keep that in mind. You do get extra meter for the kick you do out of the trick, though!

- Use pre-double jump trick to advance without locking yourself in to anything. If the opponent is paying attention and is playing a fast character they can often bait trick. If you have the read, use your extra jump to bait their bait.

- Don't always use your kick immediately out of trick or parry. Look at where the opponent is and delay it if need be so you don't just look like an idiot missing them completely, going over their head, and getting hit for free. vs S-Kill and Shoals you have to delay after parry to hit them, and vs several others you can use a slight delay to get a headshot instead of just a normal hit.

- If your kick doesn't hit and you have trick meter, watch for how your opponent moves to punish. vs many characters, you can trick to get a kill, and vs many more you can trick for safety. If safety's what you want, remember that tricking during a kick causes you to kick immediately after trick, which may not be desirable. Sometimes it's better to eat the hit and keep the meter.

- Sometimes, while kicking, it's obvious you're going to get hit and there's nothing you can do about it. But using Trick will stop your momentum, even if it won't keep you from getting hit. With this, you can sometimes, albeit rarely, predict and avoid headshots by stopping your momentum and letting them hit your toes or body instead.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 10:07:31 pm by DaiAndOh »

Adelheid

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 11:41:54 pm »
Hey, I remember when I wrote this

If I had something to add I'd mention to watch people who like to kickback a lot and to build meter on them while they aren't advancing, since normally that's a bait to keep from being headshot easily from trick and toetap you, and watch for any opportunity to trick-jump-kick to hit people trying to kickback to mess with you.

Also smugly tell anyone who you beat that maybe they should try to counterpick you, and if in person smile and nod while doing it

(Also to cross your arms while playing for strength)

DaiAndOh

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 11:43:39 pm »
Fastest meter building route while holding position is D-K-K as fast as possible?

Adelheid

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 11:45:01 pm »
There's no real change in speed between the different instant kicks, so just do whatever, slightly advancing or slightly retreating to screw with the opponent since they all look the same on startup.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 12:55:09 am by Adelheid »

Gunthor the Perilous

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2013, 05:22:53 pm »
How do you feel about The Baz vs S-Kill matchup, Adelheid?

S-Kill can't parry lightning and The Baz can punish S-Kill's landing from near any distance thanks to the startup frames on S-Kills jump not allowing for instant kicks to punish The Baz for going in, and delaying him enough to ride the lightning if the Baz just goes all in.

Likewise, The Shocker seems to be a reactable answer to Trick since the vertical hitbox is instant, and even if that wiffs then you can't punish thanks to the follow up instant kill frams on Baz's body.

What would you do in this matchup to circumvent these unique and debilitating circumstances?

Adelheid

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 08:03:46 pm »
Oh he has a huge advantage over The Baz. You can generally dodge lightning better than anyone else by going invisible, and if you have meter for Trick, building meter for kick factor is not at all safe. Yes, The Shocker is something he can do but he has to guess with it, if he's wrong in his timing you either kill him or he wastes meter. It costs a fair amount and has a lot more recovery than parry after all. Yes you can't use parry but it's not a serious problem. A lot of people have tried to counterpick me with The Baz because of the "can't parry, not very horizontal kick" logic but in all my matches at UFGT, Evo and online the only time I lost to a The Baz was the first game I fought him at Evo, after he got the Kick Factor buff and before I knew that the goal was to kill him while he was building meter and before I knew how to really run away from him when he was in Kick Factor. Staying at a comfortable distance and watching for him to start his spin, s-kill's kick has a good speed to "option select" against the way he'll kick by coming down to cover a fair amount of angles if you know the matchup. It's seriously not a problem matchup at all, just dodge lightning and build meter and wait for your chance to murder him. If he's going in, he might think he has the advantage, but he really doesn't because of your invuln time.

Adelheid

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2013, 09:50:07 pm »
Just fought a The Baz who really liked using The Shocker when he thought I'd Trick. Was the first time I'd had to deal with that. The problem: It's reactionable with Trick for a free headshot, hahaha! TOO MUCH RECOVERY. BAD MOVE.

Gunthor the Perilous

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 10:58:08 pm »
Those all caps.

But the point is a Baz that's on point can react to Trick, not have to predict it.

Though that may be untestable in an environment with lag.

Still, thank you for your experience.

Adelheid

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 11:24:58 pm »
But the point is a Baz that's on point can react to Trick, not have to predict it.

Trick has 9f total duration. You can have a hit out on the 10th frame, 12th at the realistic latest. That is NOT something anyone can reliably react to.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 11:33:48 pm by Adelheid »

Gunthor the Perilous

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 11:50:13 pm »
Are you suggesting it is impossible to react to something slower than The Hulk's jab?

Onin

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2013, 10:34:43 am »
I played almost 2 hours of Baz vs S-kill today, resulting in a 60-40 matchup. My Baz is very meter-heavy, most rounds coming down to either Shocker vs Trick, or kickfactor chasing.

If your reactions are perfect, you can always Trick as soon as Baz dives and there's nothing he can do about it. It'll probably not be a headshot though. Conversely, if Baz's reactions are perfect, he can react to a Trick. It doesn't have to be a guessing game; if Baz is stationary and instantly reacts to seeing your meter drop, you'll get Shocked.

Most of the time when I miss a Shocker guess, I immediately dive or kickback, and this almost always dodges his Trick. But if he delays it, he catches me. But if he delays it and I have meter for a second Shocker, he's dead.

I don't know the exact frame data, but in practice it seems like a very 50/50 mindgame. The thing that gives Baz the edge is his Kickfactor actually being useful in the matchup.

Adelheid

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2013, 10:43:24 am »
I am just gonna say, Baz is way better in this fight online than offline. You can pretty well react to everything he does offline, but lag makes everything harder for S-Kill. S-Kill is the character most affected by lag since his teleporting everywhere is irrelevant when the opponent can do the same, and it makes it way harder to land tricks. Trick gets worse the higher your ping.

Also almost every S-Kill online sucks

I am 100% confident in my S-Kill over any The Baz offline. Getting out of the way after The Shocker misses is an online only trick, offline I always clearly headshot it during recovery. Conversely, yes offline it is possible to The Shocker Trick on reaction but I don't believe it's possible to really do it consistently? 10 frames is just too fast.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 10:50:14 am by Adelheid »

Onin

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2013, 10:53:18 am »
It's possible to do it consistently, the problem is that you can't really stand there and wait for a trick all game long. You're gonna want to dive for meter to get kickfactor, at which point you can easily sneak a trick in.

But trick is more expensive than shocker. If it just becomes a battle for meter, Baz has the economic advantage.

Adelheid

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2013, 11:08:55 am »
Well, I'll have to fight more The Bazzes I guess n.n

Although I will say. Trick is more expensive than Shocker, but S-Kill's metergain is a bit better than The Baz's, and Trick is way less expensive than Kick Factor. And Tricking while The Baz isn't just sitting on the ground is pretty reliable (in a lag-free environment) and if S-Kill has Trick meter, attempting to build meter with The Baz is really unsafe.

strifecross

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Re: S-Kill Intro and Strategy Pastebin by Adelheid
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2013, 01:02:45 pm »
After the long training session me and Onin had, I would safely say that S-Kill is better overall. The Baz can easily bait into a Shocker if he keeps an eye on the meter, but a good S-Kill will be prepared for that and will learn the timing of the Shocker and easily punish it. Unfortunately, I personally have a problem with long duration skills and always go into them before they expire. While most of Onin's Shockers were really well executed, I admit that I intentionally hit a good portion of them and died because of it.

Despite all this, I still think S-Kill has the upper hand, even online. You can usually punish longer Baz kicks because you can predict when you can hit him. You can easily utilize the two Tricks you have during Kickfactor and you can keepaway from his Kickfactor with ease. I have yet to see more Bazes use the Aerial Special effectively but I don't think it will help in this scenario.

Anyway, I want to hear your opinion on the S-Kill vs Shoals matchup because to me that is easily the best character in the game and if you can master her more often than not you will dominate everyone.